WHEN on Topic: Care in daily work life: The example of a small organization.

Pinelopi: Welcome to the new season of WHEN on Topic. I’m Pinelopi Theodorakakou and I’m back to discuss with you women’s professional and economic empowerment and equality at work – sometimes even outside of it!  Our current podcast series is dedicated to caregiving responsibilities and their equal allocation, coming to you thanks to CAREdiZO. What is CAREdiZO? It is a new project we are involved in, under the European Commission’s CERV programme, which aims to bridge the gender gap in caring responsibilities by promoting equality practices at home, in micro-enterprises and small civil society organisations (with up to 10 employees). The project supports family-friendly policies, encourages men to participate in caregiving and highlights the value of caregiving in the wider society – in other words, what we have been advocating for all along! Its activities include research, co-creation workshops, training programmes and the development of digital tools, such as an educational game and podcasts, aimed at combating stereotypes and promoting equality. The rest of our partners come from Cyprus, Lithuania and Bulgaria and are currently developing their own podcasts, which you may have a chance to discover shortly.

In our episode today, we converse with Anestis Bozoglanian, Co-founder of “Πρώτα το Παιδί – Children First”, a small organisation that shows in practice how care can be an everyday choice and not just a nice idea in theory. Together, we explore how a flexible, personalised hybrid work model and the sharing of responsibilities in times of need create a work environment based on trust, cooperation, and respect for people’s real needs.

Pinelopi: Welcome, Anestis. 

Anestis: Happy to be with you, Pinelopi. Thank you very much for inviting me.

Pinelopi: Thank you for joining us. Would you like to start by telling us a little about the organisation? What does “Children First” do?

Anestis: Of course. We founded “Children First” with the aim of empowering children living below or at the poverty line in Greece, and their families, through a holistic program based on synchronised interventions in three areas that we consider to be the most important for a child’s development. That is, nutrition, education, and medical care. So, what we do is create a program for each child, providing food that the family cannot afford, covering the costs of certain extracurricular educational activities such as sports, foreign language lessons, digital education, etc., so that the child can develop skills and socialise, and also covering the costs of preventive paediatric and dental care, among other things. In other words, the child is regularly monitored by a paediatrician and a dentist. At the same time, most of the families we support are single-parent families. They consist of the mother alone with the child or the children. At the moment, we are supporting 20 families in Attica.

Pinelopi: Well-done! How many people are involved in all these great things, Anestis? How small is the organisation?

Anestis: There are four of us. We started out as three and have been four for about a year and a half now. We are growing gradually, slowly and steadily. The goal is, of course, to distribute the tasks, the work we have to do, the actions, and the activities in the best possible way. And gradually, other people will be added along the way. From time to time, we are supported by volunteers, of course.

Pinelopi: We hope the same for you, and we know it will happen. We are here in this episode of our podcast series to take a deep dive into a policy that focuses on care – or rather, two policies, actually; we’ll talk about two policies. So, a deep dive into two policies that you implement, for you to tell us where they came from, how they work, what has been difficult for you, and discuss other questions too that will come up along the way. So, we’ve already taken a little time here with Anestis and discussed the policies implemented within this small group of four people carrying a huge task, all the same, as he himself described it to us. So, I have come to two conclusions that I think I’d be interested in learning more about – also for the people who are listening to us and who may have them in mind – and that is where I’d like to ultimately culminate: that is, what WHEN has been advocating for so long and what CAREdiZo has been promoting for so long: we want to have good practices, we want to have policies that focus on care, but we are a small company, a small organisation, and, as such, should this be our priority? And why should we do that, why should we devote time and resources to that? So, that’s where our discussion will take us. But I wanted to start with something you shared with me, which is that you operate based on a hybrid model of flexible working hours, which is personalised. Can you explain a little bit what that means in practice? Both in theory and in practice.

Anestis: Great. So, in theory, starting by taking a step back, we decided together from the outset that we want the people who work in the organisation, starting from the three of us who founded the organisation, to feel good about working for it every day and not regret getting involved in this process. So, we wanted to be productive and effective in relation to our work. And at the same time, we wanted to feel good about being part of it. Therefore, we use a hybrid model, which is not horizontal. That is, each person can work some days from our office at WHEN Hub or from home, depending on their other daily needs. So, each up to each person, for example, whether they may want to come to the office one day and work from home four days, or work from the office four days and from home one day, depending on their other needs. For instance, one colleague has a baby at home, another has a child. And, along with all that, there are some additional educational and other needs that someone may have. One colleague is doing a PhD and needs to go to the university for that. So, everyone adapts their schedule based on their personal needs and the needs of their job. The same applies to working hours. Of course, we have a standard work schedule that we keep more or less, but we don’t assume that everyone has to work from 9 to 5 or 10 to 6 every day. It is adjusted according to personal and work needs.

Pinelopi: So, it started with the three of you from the team that founded the organisation, and now, as I understand it, this also applies to the person who has joined the team as an employee. Is that right?

Anestis: That’s right.

Pinelopi: And is this something that is documented as policy, or is it something that you have shared informally among yourselves and also shared with this person?

Anestis: So far, it has been informal. It is not documented as a policy. It is an agreement we have made between ourselves and which we follow. Of course, as the organisation grows, along with the job profile of each employee and the colleague who has been hired, it will certainly become something more structured and more “formal”.

Pinelopi: We’ll be getting to that. I’ll put an asterisk on it for now. I’m making a mental note, because it’s interesting to see how these informal decisions, which are just as important and useful, change. And how we can, not exactly, transfer them but how they can evolve along with the evolution of the team. So, I’m keeping that as a future note. How do you imagine this policy –this informal policy– will evolve over time, as the organisation evolves? But let’s come back to today. So, it all stems from your own needs. Hence, I understand it as a need that has arisen from a value that is not being constrained by a formal schedule. Do I understand that correctly?

Anestis: Quite right. We want the people in the organisation to feel good while “serving a purpose”. To actively take part in it. To feel that they are growing and evolving within it. And that at the same time, the rest of their lives are not left behind because of it. Their involvement in “Children First” should be part of their evolution and development and not something that holds them back.

Pinelopi: That sounds very nice. How does it work in practice? Because I’m myself a process person, as I say in every episode. I wonder how this works… So, on Friday for example, we make the schedule for the following week? Or don’t we make any schedule? Do we make the schedule for the month? Do we know more or less what Anestis’ needs will be, what Pinelopi’s needs will be? How does it work, actually?

Anestis: Great. So, we start one step ahead, with the current needs of the work first. We have a plan and a strategic plan for the year and our weekly, monthly, and daily plan; that way everyone knows, based on their job profile, what they have to do during the week, for example. Then, ideally, we’ll have a staff meeting, either in person, hybrid, or online during the week, where we’ll discuss current issues and priorities. But everyone knows what they have to do. So, typically, we work roughly within the limits of working hours. But we keep each other informed that, for example, “today I will need to go and I’ll cover this later”. Or they know that tomorrow they have to deliver that specific task and they will adjust their working hours accordingly, based on everything else too. It’s not easy. It’s not an easy equation.

Pinelopi: It doesn’t sound easy. It sounds very nice. But it’s not easy. If you could see me here in the podcast studio at WHEN Hub, you’d see my eyes widening in surprise a little. As I’m trying to imagine it with four people, or with three people, or five people, and I’m having a hard time. I guess it must be a challenge. It seems a bit like a chess game, a puzzle, a brain teaser, all of those things together…

Anestis: Well, you’re absolutely right. It starts with something you mentioned at the beginning. We build our relationship on trust. So that’s the first step when someone joins the organisation, and we want that to remain true indefinitely. So, we trust each other. We understand that there are times when deadlines are not so formal and are a little more informal, or things that we have set as a priority to be done by a certain point will need to be pushed back a little because something else will come up. Even though it can sometimes delay our development or some things we want to do, that is a risk we take because we don’t want to forget that above all we want to be a healthy team that works together, within which we trust each other, and move forward together. In other words, when something gets stuck, it gets stuck for everyone, and it’s not the fault of one person or another.

Pinelopi: It’s a collective responsibility, in other words.

Anestis: We all share the load. It’s not easy because sometimes it can create tension and even frustration when things get delayed, but precisely because we are a small team, we need to be flexible, since there are things that will come up. For instance, if I suddenly get sick. We have a solution to that, because we have backups for everything. For everything we do, there is always someone else who acts as backup and knows that specific part.

Pinelopi: We will come back to this, because it is another policy that you are implementing, which is very valuable and which could work very effectively in both small and medium-sized enterprises and large companies. I mean, I really liked it when we discussed it, going a little beyond the purpose of this episode… That is, this flexibility, which okay, we don’t have it written down. But we know about it more or less. So, in reality, it is based on responsibilities and not on time or working hours. It is based on results and deliverables, we could say, roughly speaking in our language. However, you mentioned a key word that I think we have discussed a lot in this series, and that is the word “trust”. And I’m thinking… Okay, it’s the three of you, you have created this team. You are the people who share the same vision. Maybe not in the same way. Maybe the organisation means different things to each of the three founding members. But, in any case, you started together from a common starting point. And then another person comes along. And gradually, a second person comes along, and a third person, and the volunteer team too, we could add. How is this trust built, then, or is it a given that we trust each other? Which is fine, but for the person joining the organisation, how do they know that you will trust them, and they can trust you too?

Anestis: Well, in order to maintain a balance, first of all we make sure that there is a good, agreeable setting in which we discuss all the problems and difficulties, but that this setting and the team are professional and operate according to certain standards. This is made clear from the outset, when they undergo training in their job and in the tasks that they will be performing. I’d say we start out on good intentions. This does not mean that trust is a given. Trust develops and evolves along with the team. However, we show everyone who joins that there is always room for such a development. They can bring their whole personality to the team, contribute ideas and opinions, and speak openly with us when something is troubling them. Therefore, it’s something we put on the table from the start, and it’s something that is built and redefined along the way. But the same applies to everyone.

Pinelopi: Have you encountered resistance to the way you work from other people, from external collaborators? I guess, curiosity for sure, admiration for sure, but resistance with, you know, not in a negative sense, I mean, not just resistance in terms of questioning like “I don’t understand it”, but also in the sense of, for example, “Do I know when I can find you?”, or “Do I know that you or your employee or whoever will answer my phone call or email?” Have you ever encountered this?

Anestis: We haven’t encountered it because…

Pinelopi: Because they don’t know about it…

Anestis: Generally, we are consistent.  That is, there is no way they won’t find us, or we won’t get back to them. Or if we are away for a day, either someone else will cover for us or we will let them know, and if we need to reach out, our colleague will take care of it. So, there isn’t such a case, except maybe for some delay of a few hours, that may occur.

Pinelopi: Which happens in all lines of work.

Anestis: We haven’t had any particular problems with that so far. I think it’s manageable.

Pinelopi: I’m deliberately focusing on the difficulties, because I think we’ve encountered this in our podcast series many times: That we may be talking about how well we’re doing and how good we are, and I think we may tend to do that, in general. I certainly do for once. I tend to focus on the positive. But then, listening to the episode, I think I should have dug a little deeper. Why is that, and how does it work and how does it not work? So, I wanted to stay with that for a moment. If you have an experience to share with us, an example of a case, that didn’t work well or went wrong. That’s my first question. And of course, what did you do after that? And the second question is whether you ask each other for feedback. That is, asking what works for you now and what doesn’t work – and what you need. Or with regard to the person who has joined the organisation, and possibly this is the third stage. How do you think it will work afterwards? But we’ll circle back to that point later on.

Anestis: We have examples for both of the points you mentioned. Regarding the first one, as I stressed earlier on it’s a difficult equation. Because, as we discussed, we are human beings and many unexpected things happen. Let’s say I have to deliver something by a deadline and suddenly I get sick or my child gets sick and I have to do something, leave something and have someone else take over. And the other person may have their own deadline these days. With Christmas approaching, we now have a lot on our plate, for example. So, in order to take this on, they will take on an extra burden without necessarily having the time. So, both tasks may have to go back a bit. This may cause us tension, distress, or may even create practical problems in terms of results. But it is something we have decided to sacrifice, because we need to find a balance by being okay with it. We already have to deal with many difficulties, because the conditions in Greece are not always friendly to civil society organisations and they certainly don’t make things easy on them.

Pinelopi: There is mistrust.

Anestis: There is mistrust, and there is not the same structure in place like in other countries, where civil society is supported in various ways and through various means, which facilitates its daily work. There are many such examples where something has had to be put on hold, and this sometimes causes tension and frustration. But then, we discussed it and we all took a step back, after taking a deep breath and saying, OK, it happened, but it was necessary. It happened, it will happen again, and we need to be ready for it.

Pinelopi: I can narrow it down to four components. Trust, consistency, risk, and deep breathing, I’d say. But I’m going to make it a little more difficult and ask a question. Okay, we are talking about an emergency, and we’ll deal with it, when necessary, with how responsibilities are divided in such a case. But if you come one day and say– If, for instance, we’re a team, and you say: “Pinelopi, I am doing a PhD. So, team, you should know that on Tuesdays and Thursdays, I’ll be shutting down my computer at two”, for example. And I’ll say to you: “Anestis, that’s great, congratulations, well done. Have a great career. But I have my own PhD, too. And I also have to close on Tuesdays and Thursdays. At one or two.” You know, now this is an extreme example, but what I mean is, when there is a conflict of needs or coverage of needs, how do you manage it? Or how do you think you can manage it in the future, even if it hasn’t happened yet? Apart from emergencies, that is. Emergencies are different.

Anestis: First of all, this happens all the time, as we are a very small team, and everything that each of us brings from outside work inevitably conflicts with the things we have to do at work. The key is that it doesn’t start with an affirmation. It starts with a question.

Pinelopi: Oh, that’s nice.

Anestis: [It will start with:] “I have this. Tuesday, Thursday, 10 to 1, I’ll be away.” or “So, guys, I want to do a PhD. It’s important to me.” So, we start there. We can see how we could incorporate it into our daily routine to make it happen. That’s what happened with my colleague in Athens. We sat down as a team, we saw the tasks, we said “Let’s try this. Let’s see how it works for a while.” If it doesn’t work, we’ll discuss it again and maybe try these two alternatives. But we’re starting from the premise that we’re discussing it to see how it can be done, not how it can’t be done.

Pinelopi: Wow, what you’re saying is really important. In my example I’m presenting you with a fait accompli. I’ve already applied for a PhD, a master’s degree, whatever it may be. We have to find a way to make it happen. But what you’re saying is the fifth component of what we’re discussing today. That we don’t start with what I’ve already planned to happen. But what I want to happen and how the team can make it happen. Precisely so that this conflict of interest that exists everywhere does not arise. But in small teams it may be unworkable. Isn’t it so?

Anestis: That’s true, and it brings us back to trust, which we said is something that is redefined and built on. And trust will also be built if there is mutual respect. It is very important to share my needs and work with my colleagues to find ways to integrate them into the team’s daily routine. We all have such needs. Whether it is human care or a personal need, educational needs or other needs. It is important to understand each other’s perspective and to try together to integrate them into our daily lives.

Pinelopi: It’s not just the question, then, which is the fifth component, but there is also a sixth, which we circle back to in my opinion –and that’s what’s magical about it–, that is the policies. Whether they are written down somewhere or not. We have decided that we will apply them seriously and consistently. Consistency does not mean that we have decided something as a team and that’s it, it’s done. [It’s not like] “Guys, it’s settled, bye, it’s over.” Rather, it’s something that we come back to, because it may work for you who have requested it, but not work for the rest of the team. Which, in turn, does not mean that you will give up your doctorate, but we will have to try something else.

Anestis: Right.

Pinelopi: Or it may not work for you either. For example, I may have asked to leave early, so I can go to class and study, but in the end, that may not suit me and something else does.

Anestis: In my opinion, policies are a roadmap, but the process is dynamic. And we mustn’t forget that the purpose of policies is to make our work easier, not more difficult. Whether we have written them down or are gradually creating policies that we are gradually writing down, we must not forget that they are not just a piece of paper or something in a file that we have to follow even if it is not functional. The purpose is to help us be more effective in our work and, at the same time, be happy with what we do.

Pinelopi: And now let’s go to the cases of emergency. A second thing we discussed, and I think it reflects as I listen to you talk now and, more generally, the culture of your team that you have described to us and the way you support each other. But when I heard it, my eyes widened, because I think it seems very difficult to implement. What kind of policy are we talking about now –you can explain it better than me, probably, in terms of practice, that is– if something unexpected happens to me, it doesn’t matter what. Or maybe it does matter, you will tell us. It could be an urgent need to care for a dependent person. And there is a backup system, I understand, where I let something fall because I have to give my attention elsewhere. But is there a person who catches it before it breaks or does it break a little anyway?

Anestis: It could be both.

Pinelopi: I see. Do tell us. It might not break at all; it might break a little.

Anestis: It may not break at all; it may break a little. Look, as a small team, our organisational chart is not yet optimal and most functional. What we have done is that for each category of actions, tasks, call it what you will, there is someone who is responsible, and there is always a second person who knows how to do that part and is the “backup”. There is also a third person, who will help if the other two are unable to do so. Or the other two may need help and a third person will help. This does not mean that it is set in stone and that it must be done that way. It will be done based on priorities. That is, if it is a task that needs to be done once a month and it happens to be the period when we should do an update, let’s say, a renewal, and the colleague is not available during that period, and neither is the second one, but it is not a priority at the moment, it can be done a little later. If we have a deadline, and something happens to the first or second person, the next person will come in.

Pinelopi: So, the next person…

Anestis: The back up person or we rush in as a team. And that’s why it’s important that we talk openly every day. Whether we talk in person or on the phone, communicate online or through Slack for messaging.

Pinelopi: Of course, we love Slack.

Anestis: We exchange messages. But I want to say that we find solutions dynamically. The team steps in, someone can do that. Or if they can’t, the backup steps in. Or if it’s not a priority, it will be done later.

Pinelopi: Anestis, is this how you built the team, or is it something you thought of along the way and piloted at some point and saw that it worked? Or did it come about organically, because, for instance, you couldn’t be somewhere, so I had to take over something? And you thought, “That’s great, let’s try it.” Did you just decide from the beginning that it would be like that?

Anestis: We didn’t decide that from the outset. It came about along the way for practical reasons. We started out as three co-founders, equal in every respect. And either because we didn’t want to boss each other around, or because we shared the needs and everything that needed to be done, all three of us were involved in everything. This, apart from inevitably leading to burnout at some point…

Pinelopi: It’s a bad practice.

Anestis: It’s just not practical for everyone to be involved in everything. We decided that it wasn’t necessary for more than two people to be involved in everything we do. We can build around each person’s skills and the parts they want to work on. Because the three of us didn’t just say, “Okay, you have to take this, and you have to take that.” We said we’d be starting with these ten things. “– Ideally, which ones would you like to work on? – This and that.” “Ideally, I’d like to work on this and that.” And we divided them up. Of course, even today, we don’t always manage to do that. But it’s our effort to be team players. And in general, perhaps it is our need, as we may sometimes feel insecure. Sometimes, the three of us, or even the four of us, may get involved. But ideally, we try not to involve more than two people. Except for some big things, where we have to plan so that everyone has a role.

Pinelopi: Okay.

Anestis: All four of us can’t have a role in each one action.

Pinelopi: I said before that it’s a bad practice. But the truth is… – a big parenthesis in relation to the small organisations that the project CAREdiZo deals with. That is, the main audience it targets is small civil society organisations and small businesses. From one to ten people. That’s exactly where we are, the two of us. But I would say that, especially in small groups, it is necessary to start off this way, in order to learn, whether you are the one starting the organisation or not. It is necessary to go through all the stages, so that you know what you want to become when you grow within the organisation and what you want to become when the organisation itself grows – and also so that you know what you are talking about. In other words, the fact that there are two people for each task at a minimum came about organically from the way you initially set up the team. How do you imagine that these two practices can work as the team grows? In other words, how do you envision this flexibility in the schedule and your effort to meet the needs that exist outside of what we call the world of work, so to speak, but also the way you have set up the backup, which is very useful in emergencies. How do you envision this working when there are seven of you? Which I wish for you.

Anestis: Thank you very much; we hope and wish for that too. Certainly, when we reach that level, the organisational chart will need to become more “normal”.

Pinelopi: More formal, we could say.

Anestis: More formal, but also informal in parts. That is, at the moment we have a unique organisational chart in which we are essentially three co-founders. It’s as if we are three managers and we have one employee, a female employee in this case. When others are added, the tasks that each person works on will be divided a little better. This will apply to the three of us, our two colleagues, and the rest. So, because the workload will increase, I think it will be better for everyone to be clearer about what they have to do and not get lost in the details, but without losing the culture of back-up, of being there for the team. That’s what it means to integrate someone into the culture. It’s also our job in our daily lives. It’s an attitude we follow. In other words, this won’t happen by imposing it or simply because a policy says so. It will happen because you will inspire the person who joins the team. You will inspire them, and you understand this aspect. So, it will certainly need to be a little more formal and a little more structured, but without losing sight of some of the basic principles we have established around it. And we can’t forget, of course, that personal needs cannot be left out of the picture. They must be maintained for the people who join next.

Pinelopi: How can you maintain that?

Anestis: You can maintain that by recording more things, so that they are clearer, especially in a larger team, when there may be ten of us and there won’t be direct communication and contact in the same way that the two or three of us have now.

Pinelopi: Right.

Anestis: Nevertheless, again, it will also be through ongoing discussions through training, through a more structured job profile and description, what each person has to do, but also the possibilities and opportunities we offer. In other words, it should be a little clearer why you have this flexibility in your schedule within this margin. You have this opportunity to do something else. But we need to discuss it. So, it definitely needs to be recorded, it definitely needs to be more structured to some extent, and it needs to be clearer at the beginning because there won’t be this kind of daily communication between everyone.

Pinelopi: That’s true. That happens. And that, I think, brings me to one of my last questions, which is what happens when, or what do you think might happen when, there is a larger group of 6-7 people. I wanted us to focus on that a little bit. As a member of your team, I may ask for things, because for instance I’m doing my PhD, and then my child got sick and then, whatever reason, I ask for something else and something else and something else. Otherwise, I’m good with my deliverables. I’m on schedule. In any case, there haven’t been any serious consequences. And there’s another member of the team who may not be as dynamic, so to speak. They may not have yet gained that sense of trust and psychological security: “The team tells me that they are here for me, but maybe I am not there yet”, or I can’t find the courage. And ultimately –as we’ve seen it happen– this may lead to, you know, not exactly frustration, but a sense of injustice. Have you ever thought about how you and we could manage that?

Anestis: That brings us back a bit. We’ve discussed that we have a more relaxed structure, but that doesn’t mean that we don’t have a hierarchy or management. And that’s where good management comes in. In other words, we, as managers or whoever will be filling in in the future, must not forget that we need to be close to our team, to discuss, to talk, to see the needs, not only the needs of the work, but also the needs of the people. And this brings us back to culture. We will need to do those two things. And I understand your point completely – we need to do it, regardless of people being more or less expressive, comfortable, or more reserved, people finding it difficult to say, you know, “I’ve reached my limit, I can’t take any more”.

Pinelopi: Yes, exactly.

Anestis: They may understand the colleague’s need, but maybe they can’t do it. So, we’d need to go out to them and not wait for them to come to us. It’s part of our job to remember that we don’t just have to deliver activities and take action, we also have to talk to each other and discuss things on an individual level. Sometimes, we may need to bring out things that one may be unable to share, or may not want to share, because they may not feel comfortable enough. And of course, not feeling comfortable will be another topic of discussion within the team, why someone may not feel comfortable enough to express themselves.

Pinelopi:  Therefore, this is something that management needs to master. I really like what you’re saying; that it all starts with keeping our ears and eyes open, so we can notice something that may not have been said, but may be there, nonetheless. And if we notice it as managers, as leaders, we should ask the question, no matter how small our teams are. Are you okay, what do you need, how are you, do you want us to change something? And if they ask us –if I’ve understood this right– we may be able to give it to them, or maybe not. I think it’s important in this discussion to also include that we may not be able to do what is being asked. What do we do then?

Anestis: We will look for alternatives. We will look for the best possible way to get as close as possible to what people need. It is not a given that everything can be done for everyone. It is simply a given that we want there to be equality. The important thing is that they feel that we have listened to their needs.

Pinelopi: That’s really important.

Anestis: That we’ve put everything on the table and tried to find the closest possible solution. That doesn’t mean that everything will be possible, but it certainly doesn’t mean that nothing can be done either. And also, we as managers are not perfect. It’s a dynamic process and we are learning, improving, and our goal must be to improve. In our daily work especially, when we have a lot going on at the same time, we may forget that. We were discussing this with our colleagues recently, for example, with the colleague we hired. It had been a while since we had a meeting to discuss how her work was going, whether she felt comfortable, whether there was anything that was difficult for her. Even regarding her hybrid role, as we have structured it, because she is doing her PhD – does this make it easier for her, as she has to cover some work and she spends some hours on her PhD. Is it working, is it not? That is, what’s working and what not. So, I think the first thing is that they feel or will feel comfortable, that they can express themselves and that they will be heard in terms of discussion and finding an alternative. I don’t know if it will be enough, but I think that it will be important.

Pinelopi: It would be a very simple but important step, in my opinion. So, and this is my last question, if someone is listening to us right now and has a small organisation, with three or four people, and is thinking about it while listening to us –on the subway or wherever they are–: “Okay, Anestis makes a good point; we can probably implement some of these things”. Where would you advise this person to start from? Could you suggest one or a few things?

Anestis: Well, I think [they can start with] listening to the needs of the team. That is, understanding what each person’s specific needs are. Essentially, what we said at the beginning, that we want to combine the needs of the job with the personal needs of each individual. That’s why I said it is hybrid but not horizontal, in a way. In other words, you have five things to do in this area, but at the same time you have three other things to do in your life. How can we find a balance between them? We won’t always find it, of course.

Pinelopi: And that’s important to highlight too.

Anestis: The important thing is to put it down and know that you have this need and see how we can build around it. Unless the team discusses it and there’s open communication, we won’t reach any solution. A lot of times, we wouldn’t even know what the problem is.

Pinelopi: That’s also true.

Anestis: So, the first thing, I’d say, is to talk within our teams.

Pinelopi: Communication.

Anestis: Communication and open communication. Because it doesn’t necessarily mean that if we just have a policy and the other person knows that work will be 9-5, they will be able, without communication, to fit these pieces into their daily work routine – and they will certainly not be happy. For us, this is very important.

Pinelopi: Open communication in practice, then, and in everyday life. Anestis, thank you very, very much.

Anestis: Pinelopi, I and we thank you too, and congratulations on CAREdiZo. I think it will help many organisations and businesses with good practices, ideas, and understanding.

Pinelopi: That is our hope as well. All the best, thank you very much.

Anestis: Thank you too.

Pinelopi: What did you think of everything that we discussed with Anestis today? What other actions do you think CAREdiZO could develop to bring us one step closer to equality, in and out of the workplace? We are here to read and listen to your suggestions, comments and ideas: follow us on our social media, email us, leave a review on Spotify, come and meet us at the WHEN Hub, and let’s keep the conversation going… to make WHEN –and CAREdiZO– even better for the benefit of everyone, women and men.