WHEN on Topic: Care as infrastructure - not as privilege

Pinelopi: Welcome to the new season of WHEN On Topic. I’m Pinelopi Theodorakakou, and I’m back with you to discuss women’s professional and economic empowerment and equality at work. Sometimes even outside of it. This season of our podcast is dedicated to caregiving responsibilities and their equal distribution, and it comes to you thanks to CAREdiZO. What is “CAREdiZO?” It’s a new project we’re involved in as part of the European Commission’s “CERV” programme, which aims to bridge the gender gap in caring responsibilities by promoting equality practices at home, in micro businesses, and small civil society organizations with up to ten employees. This project promotes family-friendly policies, encourages men to participate in caregiving, and highlights the value of caregiving across society, which is what we have been aspiring to for so long. Its activities include research, co-creation workshops, training programmes, and the development of digital tools, such as an educational game, for example, but also podcasts to fight stereotypes and promote equality. Our partners are based in Cyprus, Lithuania, and Bulgaria and are currently creating their own podcasts, which you might have the chance to explore soon. What does it mean to take care of children, parents and an entire community every day? In this episode, we are talking with Anna Konstantinou, Mini Hub Manager at WHEN Hub. What is WHEN Hub? If you don’t already know, let me tell you: the first coworking space in Greece with on-site creative activities for children. We’re talking about the mothers and fathers who pass through its doors, about the needs they don’t always express out loud but are clearly there, and about what it really means to turn care into your profession. 

Pinelopi: Anna, good evening. We are so happy to have you here with us today. 

Anna: Good evening. I’m very happy to be here, too, and thank you for having me. 

Pinelopi: Tell us a bit about yourself, your background, where you come from, and how you actually turned care into your profession.

Anna: I like to introduce myself through this contrast, that I have studied Public Administration at Panteion University, but throughout these years I’ve been working with children in different settings. Right now, you find me in the environment of the WHEN Hub, which is something quite new in general, especially for me. What makes it really special is that, in this space, adults and children coexist, and at the same time I feel very directly the need to care for both of these groups.

Pinelopi: How would you describe to someone who doesn’t know what it is – I’m going to make this hard for you now- what the Hub is, and also what the WHEN Mini Hub is? 

Anna: So, WHEN Hub is, first and foremost, a community. It’s a space, a coworking space where people can come to work. It primarily supports women, but it’s open to anyone who shares the same philosophy and concerns. And what sets it apart from other coworking spaces is that it also offers creative activities for children within the space. In other words, moms, dads, and caregivers can come to this space without leaving their child or children behind. 

Pinelopi: So, I come here, I find the WHEN Hub and I have a child – let’s take my own example- for instance- and it’s not just that I don’t want to be separated from them. I might actually want to be apart for a few hours precisely because I want to work, to grow, to develop and I want to do that with the peace of mind that a person, a team, is taking care of my child. And also, I don’t have that stress of having to find someone to come to my home, which is becoming increasingly difficult. Grandmothers, grandfathers, – we’ve discussed this, and for those of you listening, you’ve heard many episodes of this series. We’ve discussed several times how the care that used to come and still comes in many cases from grandparents has started to gradually decline, because people of that age are often, thankfully I would say, still working. So, I come there- well ,here, since we are at the WHEN Hub. The WHEN Hub also has a podcast studio, so let’s mention that too. And I find you, but not just you. And what happens from that point on? 

Anna: You’ve touched on a topic that deserves a thorough discussion. I’ll try to summarize it. What’s the first thing? That we can support and help families where, even though there is someone caring for the child at home every day, something has happened to that person – they can’t do it anymore- but the mom or dad has to work, so they come to us for help. What we call a “shameful” situation. In this case, subject to availability, we provide immediate assistance, and we’re here – and it works well for the system. But I would like to mention the other, more difficult scenario- which usually involves children who are very young, just a few months old, and have never been separated from their parents except perhaps to be left with a very close relative at home. So we receive such requests, either by phone or email, asking for support and how we could make this work. That is, for us to come there – fine, you have the creative activities. How do we know we’ll be able to part ways without tears or difficulties? And that’s why we’ve managed to create, design and it’s evolving as new people and new experiences come in – a transition period. It’s very well known in kindergartens, but.. 

Pinelopi: I’ve been through that with my daughter too. 

Anna: That’s how it is for most moms. Yes, it’s a demanding time for both sides. I’d say for all three, actually. I should mention the teachers too. 

Pinelopi: Please do.

Anna: I should mention that too. 

Pinelopi: We need to take care of the people who take care. We’ve also done an episode on that. 

Anna: I’m glad about that. We need it. So yes, this whole issue of the transition period. In these cases, what we say is: come here – if you haven’t visited our space before- let us show you around together with your child, so you can also see the Mini Hub, which is the space where we do creative childcare. I’m always there as the person in charge, and there is a second educator supporting, and if needed even a third, on a stable daily basis. We meet, you see the space and then we also have a conversation about your specific needs. That is, how many times you want to come, for how many hours, what timeframe we have, so we can plan the transition steps. We suggest that the transition period is one week- that’s what we usually recommend. After that, we can start the regular working routine of the adult caregiver in the space and the child with us. But this is very dynamic. The truth is that from the very first meeting we already understand a lot about the family system. So it’s always with respect to their needs and their timing – and here there needs to be attention and balance between what the child needs, what we as educators recognize as a need, and what the mother – usually the mother at these ages- needs. What is challenging in every case and in every family is aligning those three. Because when one is well, the other is well too. They support each other. I believe – and I feel- that we already offer relief from the very first meeting.

Pinelopi: And this is also how you, as an educational team, and you as the head of the team, have designed the program. I should also clarify for those listening and haven’t been to the space that the working area for adults is on the first floor. That’s important to know. And the second space, where the children are, is not just anywhere in the building – children are on the second floor. So there is also a physical distance, or rather a spatial separation, which is important. But there is also a provision for the parent who supports the transition process to stay close while the adaptation program is running. Those are two points I wanted to mention. And a third important point is that I cannot drop off my child and leave the WHEN Hub.

Anna: Oh yes. 

Pinelopi: Right? 

Anna: Oh yes. 

Pinelopi: I mean, the way that we designed the service is that the adult who brings the child to the Mini Hub stays on the first floor and works calmly, knowing that her/his child is on the second floor being creatively engaged by trained professionals. But I cannot drop my child and leave. Mini Hub is not childcare in that sense. 

Anna: Correct. We are together. We are there together. 

Pinelopi: You mentioned earlier “usually mothers”. Who are the women or parents, I would say, who come? And I also want us to talk about fathers. What do you see they need as an educator? And what I’m really curious about and I am sitting in the Hub watching people come and go, – is what they don’t say they need, but you can see from your side as an educator and as a team. This is a bit like gossip now. 

Anna: Stories, but I’ll be a bit reserved. I’ll be a little reserved. Definitely, what we hear from all the families and from everyone who comes is “ I want at least two hours to work”. That’s it – two hours of uninterrupted work.

Pinelopi: Mmm..

Anna: That’s what they present as a necessity and that’s what everyone wants. What they don’t say is that I want to feel free from the burden of being a mom or a dad, of having that role and raising a child, while at the same time wanting to grow professionally. So… 

Pinelopi: It’s like a burden, right? 

Anna: Mmm… and we see it very quickly happen. From the first time they sit and actually have this uninterrupted time to work, which means that the child is already happy and doing well, and the feeling of “I left and they are not well” has gone. They are well.  Then you see people separating and going to another floor, again together. So you see then with how much relief and how much pride and empowerment they come and take their child and how satisfied they are that they managed to work without having these guilt feelings. They are next to it. If they need to breastfeed, they are here. If it cries, they are here. 

Pinelopi: We should say that too, right? 

Anna: Of course. There is a breastfeeding room, it is on the third floor. There is the parent and child room, in which the child can also sleep. The accompanying person can also continue working from there while the child sleeps. So for the moment we have provided for one child. Slowly the needs are increasing and we are happy about that and we are adapting to that. More will be possible. So it also gives comfort to the parents who come here. So one part is that yes, if they want to breastfeed we interrupt. The other part is that we may need to interrupt because the child insists. It may be a difficult day, anything. So again we will interrupt. But these are the points and the elements we include in the equation so that both sides trust us, both the parents and the children. And this is what removes guilt from them.

Pinelopi: It matters that you focus on women. Because the truth is -and we have said it many times, in many different ways in this series, which centers on care and the care responsibilities, and on who takes them on and it is usually women. I want to say that I cannot think of many men, and I do know many fathers who feel guilt when they leave their children at home, infants at home, and go to work, because this is what we have learned to happen to us and what we have learned to do. I am not saying they do not exist. I am saying it is not the usual case. It is more that we are the ones who carry these care responsibilities, of course not only for children or infants, but in general care responsibilities. But the guilt is more ours, and I am very glad you bring it up, because it is also quite deep. Because our society has loaded us with this role. That, you know, you need to put your work aside for a while to take care of the child. And while raising the child, okay, you will find your way later. In the meantime you may have lost training, you may have lost opportunities. You are not treated the same when you are a “mommy”—in quotes, always. I cannot stand this word, I have said it in another episode as well. You are not treated the same, and when you return you are not given the same opportunities. So there is a huge stereotype and discrimination that you never win. I mean, if you leave – if you could see me i do quotes with my hands- you leave the child at home and they say, “oh come on, you’re a mother.” If you do not return to work, they say, “oh come on, you depend on your husband for everything.” In any case, you never win. So I want to ask you, you mentioned self-confidence, if there is anything else you have observed as an educator, something we do not talk about often: what changes for a woman practically and psychologically when she knows her child is next to her while she works, learns, evolves, writes her PhD—we also have such cases. What change do you see?

 Anna: The obvious and practical thing is that she can indeed work without interruption. The other part has to do with emotional reasons. You can see how much she enjoys this. And I will bring examples from other environments I have worked in, because in all the other environments there was always separation.

Pinelopi: Correct.

Anna: The child would come, it was an environment for the child and the mother would go whenever she had to go for work. These two parts were separate there. And the mother is usually the one who is expected to feel okay with this and to be pressured into feeling okay with it. But in reality she does not feel okay with leaving the child. So here, what changes a lot is that she does not feel that she is actually separating from the child. The child is here. And this brings emotional relief which also leads to mental freedom, so that she can produce what she wants professionally. This is a big difference: that the child is here and nearby. Also, another practical aspect that I recently realized after some discussions with families is that they save time. If they were taking the child to another place… 

Pinelopi: Practically, right? 

Anna: Practically, yes. They would have to separate, the child would be somewhere else, and then they would  go to work. So yes, they definitely save time in practical terms. But the biggest gain is emotional, the relief and the lack of worry about how the child is. Is it okay? Is it calling for me?  They don’t call me. Am I not being called because everything is fine, or because everything is fine, or because they do not want to disturb me? Here, we resolve all of this very quickly. Because,  I repeat, we are in the whole adaptation phase, which as a word always feels a bit strange to me, but it is the most familiar one to everyone. 

Pinelopi: Correct.

Anna: We are talking about familiarity, about building trust. So in this phase we are together and we solve all of this together.

Pinelopi: Tell us a story.

Anna: So, the very first story that impressed me was with the youngest baby we had here, five months old. And the story is this: the company where the mother worked looked for this solution and this environment to support its employee. So once a week…

Pinelopi: Well done to the company, I would say. Well done to the company.

Anna: A small company.

Pinelopi: And it was a small company.

Anna: Exactly. So they have found this alternative, this solution. And on that day, when the whole team of the company was here and this mother was bringing her baby, the mother had anxiety about how the separation would go, what would happen. We did face difficulties. But when she managed to function within her team, in her professional environment, with all these people she wanted to be close to, and her baby was upstairs calm and we were taking care of it and loving it very much, then she started crying. It was a story she shared in front of the rest of the team of the wonderful WHEN Hub, because it was really the first time she felt this kind of support, which is usually found a lot in maternity hospitals, but then it disappears. So here we were a very directly supportive and helpful environment in this matter. This is a very beautiful story.

Pinelopi: A beautiful story. I know it as well from the team. 

Anna: Yes.

Pinelopi: Now that you shared this story, I want to ask you: if you had to convince the employer of a very small organization or a very small business, because this is our main target group in the CAREdiZO project, to invest in allowing working people to work from the Hub, like in the case you described, while their children from 0 to 12 are engaged in creative activities, what would you say to them?

Anna: I am ready for this, so I can address it.

Pinelopi: We will put you everywhere.

Anna: Exactly, exactly. So I would say without hesitation that care is not a personal problem of the employee. It is not a personal problem. It is a strategic advantage of the company, especially for a small team. Because if you lose this person, the balance will definitely be disrupted much more easily, especially if that person is very capable. So yes, it is a strategic advantage. If you manage to show in practice that you care about the person’s life outside the office, then you build a team that will stay with you in difficult times and perform at its best. I should also add that in this way, such a collaboration in such an environment can definitely achieve reduced burnout, increased productivity, improved morale and commitment – above all.

Pinelopi: And you also built trust, I think. You built psychological safety. You built the real image of a company that, as you said, invests in its people and looks beyond what happens within standard working hours. Following this question, if you could change one thing in the system, in the culture, in the way we think about care, what would it be?

Anna: Ah, I was waiting for this question and I really wanted it to exist. I would like to change the belief that care is a women’s issue. And I would like to see more men in daycare centers, for example, and not only in director positions. More men in the field. This immediately creates the image that care is not a matter of gender, it is a matter of human skill. 

Pinelopi: I would also like to see more fathers at the Mini Hub bringing their babies and children.

Anna: We do have them, I should say.

Pinelopi: We do, of course I know it.

Anna: Can I tell a very short story here? 

Pinelopi: Yes, of course.

Anna: A mother approached us to find a solution for the father who works from home and is taking care of their child. And she learned about us, and so the father comes here, who could not work from home, and we have this family here. The mother works where she works, and the father comes here. I found it a very beautiful idea for their system and for this family. Another way of care appeared here, where one person can support the other.

Pinelopi: Nice. We want more fathers like that. Let’s move a bit more to you.

Anna: Let’s see. 

Pinelopi: So, because you work and you have worked in a place, in many places, but I will now talk about the WHEN Hub. You work in a space where, both in front of the cameras and behind the cameras, we constantly talk about care. And I would like to ask you something, which is a question I usually ask in different ways. Whether it has changed you in any way, whether any of your thoughts about care have changed, and whether you think differently about care in professional life in general, I would say.

Anna: Every time, in whatever environment I have worked in, it is indeed very effortless, because the people who are in these roles obviously want to, and it comes very naturally to us to offer care. What makes it difficult is that we very often overlook our own needs for care. Of course, over the years we gain experience, we set boundaries, we understand things. Here also, in this position, I am called to take care of the rest of the team, the pedagogical team of the Mini Hub, so this also has an additional… 

Pinelopi: Correct.

Anna:… effort and strain. By talking so much here about care, I have also felt that I have deactivated my own need for care.

Pinelopi: Ah, how beautiful.

Anna: Yes, I can, I feel that I can ask for it. I now feel this need for care as a right. So yes, it is in my hands to claim it or not to claim it. In any case, there are some other issues that each of us, each person, needs to resolve on their own. But yes, I feel that it is something that is a right.

Pinelopi: I will keep that. I really like it and I am very happy that you feel this way. Thank you very very much, Anna. 

Anna: Thank you very much for this invitation and the experience of the discussion.

Pinelopi: What did you think of what we shared today with Anna, and what else do you think CAREdiZO could potentially create that would bring us one or more steps closer to equality, both inside and outside of work? We are always here to read and listen to your suggestions, comments, and ideas, so you can follow us on social media, send us an email, leave us a review on Spotify, and, of course, come and meet us at WHEN Hub and let’s continue the discussion so that we can make WHEN and CAREdiZO even better for everyone.