WHEN On Topic: From motherhood to parenthood

Introduction: Welcome to the new season of When On Topic. I’m Pinelopi Theodorakakou, and  welcome to yet another discussion about women’s professional and economic empowerment and equality at work and sometimes even outside it. This season of podcast episodes  is dedicated to the responsibilities of care provision and their equal distribution and is made possible thanks to CAREdiZO. What is CAREdiZO? It is a new project in which we participate within the framework of the program “CERV” of the European Commission, which aims at bridging the gender gap in the responsibilities of care provision, through the intention of equality practices at home, in very small enterprises, and small civil society organizations employing up to ten people. The project supports family-friendly policies, encourages male family members to participate in the care provision, and highlights the value of care within society at large, which is precisely what we have stood up for for so long. Its activities include research, co-creation workshops, training programs, and the development of digital tools, such as educational games and podcasts, to combat stereotypes and promote equality. Our partners, from Cyprus, Lithuania, and Bulgaria, are currently creating their own podcasts, which you will be able to listen to shortly.  In this episode, we are joined by  Vassilis Tsolis,  a technology consultant and a working dad who daily tries to truly share- a key word – the responsibilities of care provision at home and break the stereotypes which still weigh on fatherhood. We will discuss the usual comments he hears, the reactions of those around him, the obstacles he encounters, and the small or large changes he would like to see in the future, leading to a fairer, more companionable, and humane form of parenthood.

Pinelopi: Good evening, Vassilis.

Vassilis: Good evening, and thank you very much for inviting me.  I am very glad that I’m going to talk about such a personal subject, which is very close to me.

Pinelopi: We are also very glad that you have accepted this invitation. To begin, please tell us a few things about yourself. Who are you, what do you do, and how old are your care responsibilities?

Vassilis: Well. First of all, let me tell you a few things about myself.  I’m a civil engineer who has studied law but who has also worked with artificial intelligence for the last ten years. I have recently become a consultant in companies involved with technology in one way or another. It may concern sales, product development, or various other things. This means that I can be at home quite a bit, and this significantly contributes to what has been happening over the last eight months, since the birth of Cleo.

Pinelopi: Congratulations!

Vassilis: Thank you.

Pinelopi: First of all, let me say that you are the second man invited to speak on our podcasts. I may be mistaken. You are a man, and you are involved in technology, so you face two stereotypes. But, you accepted our invitation to come here and talk about the things you do to break the stereotypes.

Vassilis: Yes. But I think it is an ongoing effort. It’s not something binary. It requires a daily effort.

Pinelopi: You didn’t decide one day and say, “We are going to start breaking stereotypes as a family”.

Vassilis: And it’s defined differently every day.

Pinelopi: Very well. We are going to discuss that. I place an asterisk here. My email invitation to participate in the podcast read as follows: “We would very much like to interview a working dad who is looking for solutions, is involved, and tries to do things a little differently.” And we thought of you. What do you see yourself doing differently from the stereotypical father role we often see around us, which we see as well?

Vassilis: I think part of it is time management. Secondly, I think what counts is the intention to contribute equally to the effort of raising a child. I think that instead of assuming the role of fathers as auxiliary, behind and a little on the side, helping only here and there, we should try daily to be there and be truly present. 

Pinelopi: You have said three words I love. The first is flexibility because you mentioned that your job allows you to be there. I connect it to the second phrase, therefore, time management, but there is also the part of intention you mentioned, which you truly want to be present, in a way that is not auxiliary but essential. So I recapitulate because it’s nice to keep small keywords which can help some other dads or future dads who are listening to us. I want to ask you, though, at this point if you had imagined your life as a dad before you became a father. And while we were waiting for you, I was describing the theme of the episode with our sound engineer, Dimitris Kokovidis, and I asked him,, “Dimitris, as a man, what would you  like to ask Vassilis?” and he gave me a very nice question. How much were you influenced by your memories, and with what stereotypes did you have to deal with from your own past as a child?

Vassilis: What impressed me the most was that when Cleo was born, we brought her to see her grandparents and their friends. And I noticed that my own father did not, let us say, know how to hold Cleo, and I essentially started a conversation with him. What I noticed the most was his guilt, that he hadn’t spent time or effort to be present in raising his children, myself included. Therefore, that was what impressed me very much. And I was thinking. Well, what does that mean from now on? Turn this around? I don’t think I have a concrete answer; I don’t have a recipe. I invent it on a daily basis. What I think, though, is that it is important to be present in the small as well as in the big things, let’s say. Changing a diaper is no big deal. Playing with the baby, also, is something which gives you energy, but is also very beautiful when it happens.

Pinelopi: But I have to say, she also drains your energy.

Vassilis: Well, that’s for sure. And energy and sleep. 

Pinelopi: So, what are the big ones? The small ones, say, are the change of diapers, playing -ok- and others that may be mentioned as we go along. What are the big ones, Vassilis? Because I feel that these — and from what I see around me — are the easy ones, and they are the ones that may possibly lead us to a more modern trap which is,  you know, I’m there for those, so I don’t have to… What? I don’t know. 

Vassilis: I think, now, for a 7-8-month-old child, the sense of security  for the child is something both parents must make an effort to create. So, I think, for such a young kid, this is the most important: for Cleo to feel safe, at all times. 

Pinelopi: With whichever of the two she happens to be with.

Vassilis: Exactly, yes. 

Pinelopi:  There’s something you’ve said in this short conversation so far, you’ve brought something up 2-3 times that is very important to emphasize, I think: the daily effort, the daily negotiation. That it’s all about daily effort and daily negotiation. And, putting that word in, I wanted to ask you if there’s something that has come naturally to you and your partner — that, you know, I do this, you do that— or if it’s something you’ve had to negotiate between you both again along the way. Because, you know, sometimes, when we have this conversation with dads who we know are there equally, there’s an embellishment concerning the situation between partners, let’s say. 

Vassilis: Yes. 

Pinelopi: He is laughing, if you must know. For those of you who are listening to the episode, he is secretly laughing.

Vassilis: The truth is that as Cleo is growing up, the things we need to do change. And that changes every week. So the negotiation with my partner is ongoing. In other words, what each of us does changes quite a bit. I mean, at first I may have been very busy with the kitchen — and I was completely in charge of it.  Then that changed; it has been redefined. And, of course, it is also a balance between that and work. And what I want to say is that I’m grateful to have this opportunity to be at home as well. And, secondly, that I can also set my own working hours, not completely, not 100%, but I can set them myself. 

Pinelopi: I am going to play devil’s advocate here because I know that your partner is also working. If it’s a day that’s very important for both of you — a very important appointment, a trip maybe — I don’t know if that has ever happened. How do you manage this negotiation?

Vassilis: I think it’s after a lot of discussion. I mean, my partner thought of going on a business trip a few months ago. And this was for a business meeting. And we thought it through, how the idea of her being away three days worked. And I would be here with friends or a nanny or some family member. And essentially, when we thought it through, the program couldn’t work.  But, we decided that I would go along too with some friends. And so we did a nice three-day, four-day babysitting — three or four people who were beside my partner to practically help her make this trip, the business trip, that she wanted. 

Pinelopi: That’s nice. So, discuss and create possibly out-of-the-box solutions. 

Vassilis: Yes, yes.

Pinelopi: If you have the flexibility to do that because it’s very important to say this. And I imagine that you have people in your environment who don’t have the flexibility to do that. So, I don’t know if you can share an experience where you felt that you would have needed a little more support from your work environment.  Perhaps not because you somehow define it yourself. But, if you had, of course, please share it. But you have such experiences from your friends — and I’m using the male gender very specifically — from men who are dads and theirwants and needs. For it is not only if I have the will; it is if I need to, as a parent, to have an active participation in the upbringing and care of my children. And I bang my head against a wall. I don’t have support. 

Vassilis:  First of all, let me say that we’ve been lucky so far. Because, for example, this trip was during the weekend, so we could organize our time better. But, if I think about it, what I see both from friends and colleagues and in my social environment is that there’s a missing institutional part for dads and fathers out there. That is, if you can organize your own schedule, it is much easier. But, if you look at it in terms of labor rights as well as opportunities, the chance to get, let’s say, three or four weeks of leave — that is, I’ve taken three weeks off and then for two weeks I almost didn’t work at all – I know very well that this is not the case for most people. And so, this is a dialogue that needs to take place. Because, yes, there’s goodwill, and I assume a lot of dads out there want to feel that initial weeks after birth experience — which is very important, and besides, it’s very difficult for moms. It’s exhausting. 

Pinelopi: And with lack of sleep. Yes, that’s what I was about to say now. 

Vassilis: So, it’s important that these people are given the opportunity to be present. And I understand that this institutionally, if they discuss this with an employer, should depend on the goodwill of the employer, not that he has the working right. 

Pinelopi: I’m listening to what you’re saying. There are care leaves, and there are parenting leaves, which dads can take too. Nevertheless, my question is — and it comes from research carried out by WHEN, but I’ll ask for you to answer too here — even if it was easier for dads to get it too. If there were the corresponding weeks or corresponding leaves available, would they take them? Would you take them?

Vassilis: I think this is completely a personal game, first of all. I mean, once you have the opportunity to take the time, it’s two things: whether you’re going to get, practically, the leave, and, even if you do, what you’re going to do with that leave. 

Pinelopi: Exactly. Because leaves exist, but also from our own research, it has emerged that dads don’t take them. And they don’t take them for specific reasons. One is the stereotype concerning care; they’re afraid that their status at work will diminish. But, and even when they take them,when you take them,  I have you here as a representative of the male sex beside me, not against me, you don’t utilize them in the same way. I mean, it can be, you know, from the feeling of privilege “perfect, I was given leave from my job” — say you were an employee at a tech company — “I was given leave from my job, for raising my child, let’s say, and basically I is work on my side project.” So, I want your comment on that. You also used the phrase “fine, but there is a chance that they will get the leave, but how do they use it?” Is it truly for them to be actively involved in the care and upbringing of the child, or not? 

Vassilis: It’s a matter of an overall culture, I think. Which, if you think about it, I haven’t been with other moms, dads, who are organized, and, essentially, we’re talking about all of that. I mean, I want to say that, even now, I’m operating as a unit. There’s nothing out there where I can exchange views, ideas, and methodologies — how best to do that. 

Pinelopi: And more collectively, perhaps.

Vassilis: Of course, yes. It’s very important. In any case, I think that raising a child very much includes the definition of collectivity. That is, the concept of collectivity is a game between both parents and the social circle in which a child lives. 

Pinelopi: And I feel that this is not only true for children. Care, that is, includes collectivity by definition. Whether it is the responsibility of caring for a child, or the responsibility of caring for a sick parent, or the care of another relative.  The care, even if I undertake it on my own,as a mom, daughter, partner, sister, I need, and we’ve discussed it in another episode of this series, someone to take care of me as well. So, care has a sort of collectivity, indeed. And, because you said that it has a bit to do with the culture around us, what is the most frequent comment, reaction, or look that you encounter — outside your own “bubble”, those who love you and who you love and they know who you are and what you do, as a family as well? So what’s the most common comment when you say, “I, you know, I’m not a babysitter, I’m a dad — I’m not there to help, I’m there to be actively involved”? 

Vassilis: The comments are always positive, but what I feel is that, behind the words, there is something hidden — that I am a special case, that I am, how to say it now, the exception. And I think that this needs to be worked out: even if it is not the norm for some things, we are ideally going in that direction, and that it is the right direction to follow.

Pinelopi: Is there a person in your environment that you have influenced towards this direction? 

Vassilis: I’m definitely talking to other dads who have children of the same age. And we certainly exchange some views. I mean, I don’t think it’s something “for us”, but I think it’s something in small variations. 

Pinelopi: Vassilis, you mentioned just before that there are dads with whom you discuss things, ok, maybe now that Cleo is eight months old, it is not a priority to be in a collective of dads,but there are dads in your environment with children of the same age. Do you ask each other for advice? 

Vassilis: That’s a very good question. Because what I’ve noticed is that, while there’s a lot of good material on social media, it’s how that material is filtered. What you choose to follow may not have good advice. But what I notice all the time — and it’s very true of men — is that they often don’t know how to ask for or filter out good advice.  Because I think this is a technique that is necessary at every level. It can be personal — about raising a child, about a relationship, professional— that is, how to make a decision, how to choose a career, or how to “manage” a difficult situation. Advice is needed. And I think that, many times, or several times, we do not have the knowledge to cope with a difficult situation. And what I can say with certainty is that, in the last eight months, there have been many difficult situations. That is, with the issue of parenting and raising an eight-month-old child, a lot of advice is needed. But there is also a lot of very bad advice around. How do you filter that, and how do you separate the good from the bad? It is a process.

Pinelopi: If you had one piece of advice to give — because what you’re mentioning now and we’re discussing is very important — it has a little to do with one skill also: asking for help. It’s the development of this skill to admit that I can’t do it on my own; I can’t do it alone, I need help. What is your advice for developing this skill?  Of asking for help and filtering? Because building a circle that includes people, not necessarily those I agree with, but those I trust. Therefore, I listen to their advice, and I may modify it a little, adjust it to my standards, and try to follow it to see if it suits me. This is also a skill. If I’m a new dad, and I’m listening to you right now, what advice would you give to this dad who needs to ask for help, and also could offer some guidance? 

Vassilis: And of course to offer help. I think this is an ongoing negotiation. I mean, you will find people who will offer you help, but it may not be the right kind of help. 

Pinelopi: Where do I find these people? To get rid of unrelated staff, where am I going to start in order to find it as a new dad? Let’s assume I don’t have a social circle. I have just come to Athens, and we have just had a child. What should I do?

Vassilis: You have got to acquire a circle, though. Because again, I believe that a child should be in a circle, and that the child  should feel safe. So, as a priority, what you teach a child is how to be in a social circle and learn through it. 

Pinelopi: Should I start with the neighborhood and the playground, if I have the privilege of being in such a neighborhood? 

Vassilis: Of course. And I think that simple conversations and acquaintances over there offer a wealth of information. 

Pinelopi:  And acquaintances and friendships. So start with the playground, I would say. At three months old, you can’t do that, but you can go around the playground with the stroller. What I wanted to ask you before is — going back a little bit to the beginning of the conversation — you said: we are starting to actively participate, both of us, in the upbringing of the child. And especially you, as a dad. Because that’s what doesn’t happen often. The other is somehow a “must”: you’re a mom, you’ve become a mom, you have to participate actively, it’s as if you have no other choice. So we leave that for a while, we put it aside. You mentioned earlier the small and the big things. We mentioned the small ones and some big ones. I want to add something that weighed on me — my daughter is now 12+ years old, but it’s something that happens even now. One of the big things is what we call in fluent Greek, mental load. That is: for the child to go to the pediatrician — and I’m talking about parenthood in particular — for the refrigerator to be full, for diapers’ stock, for me to call the grandmother who is going to babysit the child, to get the babysitter who will babysit her, but also to answer the email about whether I can go on the business trip or not. All this, traditionally, falls on moms. I would like to make a small comment on this. Do you think about it? Is it something included in the negotiation? Because my next question is: is there a stereotype in relation to fatherhood and your role in the upbringing and care of a child, concerning which, no matter how much you want to be there equally, something holds you back? Do you still struggle with it? Not to have overcome patriarchy? 

Vassilis:  First of all, there’s always bias, let’s say. I don’t think it’s eliminated in any case. Yes, and of course. I think being a mother of a child is quite difficult and having a career at the same time. I think the first move is to accept it. That it’s extremely difficult. And that every day is going to be a struggle. So, in every struggle — on a very theoretical basis — it’s a question of how you can manage your time, first of all. But also your feelings, I would say. That is, all this also creates anxiety, and in the end, it can also create anger. So, I think the most important thing for me is to know that my partner is feeling something, so I can be there for her. That is, if someone doesn’t communicate it, it would be very difficult for me to respond to that. That is, to organize my time accordingly, to be able to work on something that is missing at that moment. So, I think communication plays an important part.

Pinelopi: And communication has to do with, I think, it’s probably also connected to what we were talking about before: to ask for help. So, yes, I communicate my needs to you, but you also offer me help. I mean, you say to me, “Do I need to do something? Is there something I can do? Do you feel something?” In other words, I think this must come from both sides. 

Vassilis: Yes. But, I also think the redistribution of responsibilities is very dynamic… Again, I think I said it in the beginning. 

Pinelopi: No, but it’s important to say it, because, you know, sometimes we talk about an equal distribution of caregiver responsibilities. And if a person hears this phrase and hasn’t heard a corresponding conversation, he may think that care is an equal matter, it means that, well, you do these, I do those, we write it on stone, and that’s it.  But what actually comes and returns at this moment in the conversation is that it’s a daily negotiation. Therefore, the mental load is a daily negotiation. The mental load gives me a hard time, and we have to understand this. 

Vassilis: I think so. I think, I mean, that’s how you manage it mainly, and accept that it’s going to be out there. I mean, I think that the idea that I’m going to continue to have a career, and have a child, but I want to be psychologically calm all the time or calm… 

Pinelopi: And I will lack sleep.

Vassilis: I think you can reach the end of your tether, some days. And we have reached it. The thing is, how do you go about communicating it, how you manage it, and what solutions you find at that moment? There may be no solutions at that moment. There may be solutions in two days’ time. 

Pinelopi:  What you say is nice and important. I will keep it in mind, because both communication and discussion can mean that fine, we sit down and find a solution, while in reality, it may be what you were saying, that there may not be a solution now that suits all parties. But let’s not find it in two weeks. Let’s think about it and find it in two days, and possibly with difficulty,  with tension, with anger, perhaps, as you said. I would like to conclude with two more questions. What has care taught you during these eight months? 

Vassilis: Very good question. 

Pinelopi: It was to be a whole episode, but now it will be a question. 

Vassilis: Well, if I could say something about care, it’s that it takes on a lot of different shades, firstly. And secondly, you can take care of, let’s say, someone else in order for him to take care of someone else. Let us say that I take care of Cleo’s mom so that Cleo is okay, too. And we also take care of the relationship we have.  That is to say, that is another part, that we nurture the relationship so that Cleo is well too. That’s the important part. It is not only a binary issue, that I simply care. And the other part, now that I reconsider it, is that “caring” does not mean only tasks. That we have ten things to do today is, in essence,  a to-do list. It is not only that. Care, I think, goes beyond that. And that, as I said earlier, Cleo feels safe. Now, obviously, it is very difficult for me to communicate with Cleo. When she needs something, she just cries. But we can see, little by little, more and more, some signs of what it takes for her to feel a little better, a little safer, a little nicer. To have a better time, not to get bored. Not to keep her isolated. To include her in the conversation, in the company, in life. 

Pinelopi: And not to be isolated yourselves and be part of society, and this doesn’t necessarily mean just the playground. That’s where I want to focus on the next and last question, which is: what change would you like to see in society? Or, let’s not be so general, let’s say:  What change would you like to see at work, to leave the playground a little, to go to the work environment, in order to make care a more equal affair? And perhaps, if we are both employees, and we don’t have the flexibility you describe, it doesn’t always have to be because this happens in the majority of cases, that I, as a mom, won’t take the business trip so that you can go. 

Vassilis: That is exactly the case. What I thought was that one part of it is, which I think is a stereotype, let’s say, is that I don’t hire someone because they have other obligations. That is, I won’t hire a woman because there is a risk of her becoming a mom.

Pinelopi: Well, it’s even before she has obligations, we have to say that. 

Vassilis: Right, yes. So I think, if you think about it, basically what has happened now is that we have entered into a process of thinking that the mother fully takes over the upbringing of the children. If both sexes, all of us, had the opportunity to participate in the upbringing, there would be the risk that we may all be equally absent from work.  Therefore, the risk somehow becomes more horizontal. In other words, it includes all of us, all workers. So there is no minority, someone who will participate in an interview and say, “You know what? Now I understand her. In a year, she will have children.” I think that if we eliminate this, the dialogue, both social and labor, will be carried out on a completely different basis. 

Pinelopi: Do we need examples to do that? That is, to see more dads taking parental leave, so that I, as a non-dad, can also see Vassilis who has taken the parental leave that he is entitled to as a dad — because these things exist as well — and say: “Ok, so I can too.” And Vassilis went back to work, and nothing happened. 

Vassilis: Okay, I think it’s a part that “if you are away from work, I will lose face, career or a meeting that is very important”. I think that this is a very personal matter that needs to be worked out by a lot of people. But what I would think is that, if you don’t take this leave as a man, you don’t give yourself the opportunity to make the change that I mentioned before. So you have to be part of the solution and not part of the problem, and I think it’s a good opportunity to show that: “You know what, we’re all going to take the leave anyway.” Now, I understand that there are difficult periods at work, but I think this can also be manageable. But I think that’s a different discussion. 

Pinelopi: Another discussion, another episode. Vassilis, thank you very much. I hope you enjoyed it. 

Vassilis: Thank you, it was super, very nice. And good luck with the program. 

Pinelopi: Thank you very, very much. 

Closing: What do you think about what we discussed with Vassilis today? What else do you think CAREdiZO can create that will bring us one step closer to equality in and out of work? We are here to read and listen to your suggestions, comments, and ideas. Follow us on social media, send us an email, leave us a review on Spotify, come and meet us at the WHEN Hub, and let’s continue the discussion to make WHEN and CAREdiZO even better for everyone.