WHEN on Topic: Caring for employees without caregiving responsibilities

Introduction: Welcome to the new season of WHEN on Topic. I’m Pinelopi Theodorakakou and I’m back to discuss with you women’s professional and economic empowerment and equality at work – sometimes even outside of it!  Our current podcast series is dedicated to caregiving responsibilities and their equal allocation, coming to you thanks to CAREdiZO. What is CAREdiZO? It is a new project we are involved in, under the European Commission’s CERV programme, which aims to bridge the gender gap in caring responsibilities by promoting equality practices at home, in micro-enterprises and small civil society organisations (with up to 10 employees). The project supports family-friendly policies, encourages men to participate in caregiving and highlights the value of caregiving in the wider society – in other words, what we have been advocating for all along! Its activities include research, co-creation workshops, training programmes and the development of digital tools, such as an educational game and podcasts, aimed at combating stereotypes and promoting equality. The rest of our partners come from Cyprus, Lithuania and Bulgaria and are currently developing their own podcasts, which you may have a chance to discover shortly.

In our episode today, we converse with Katerina Galani, Business Development Manager in the field of culture, and open up a different but equally important chapter: caring for employees who do not have care responsibilities in their personal lives. Often, discussions about work and care focus on parents or caregivers, but what does this mean for those who do not have children or other care responsibilities? What expectations, pressures, or stereotypes do they face? And how can an organisation support these individuals equally, recognizing their own needs and rights?

Pinelopi: Good afternoon, Katerina.

Katerina: Good afternoon.

Pinelopi: We are very happy to have you with us today.

Katerina: Happy to be here with you too. 

Pinelopi: Would you like to tell us a little bit about yourself, to introduce yourself to our audience?

Katerina: My name is Katerina, and I’m feeling good.

Pinelopi: That’s great to hear! 

Katerina: I have been working in the field of culture for some years now. And I think the reason we are discussing care today stems from a more specific and not purely professional interest in issues of inclusion and equality.

Pinelopi: Cool. I can share that one of the reasons I thought of inviting you to this specific episode is because the first time I invited you to a panel, it was something we had talked about before that panel. That during the coronavirus pandemic, we only talked about families, we mainly talked about mothers, and rightly so because it is a group who constantly, and especially at that time during the pandemic, experienced an unimaginable burden of caregiving responsibilities. At the same time, however, another group was also experiencing this – a group who continued to work but did not have typical caregiving responsibilities… And there was this general feeling that you, for example, could take on more than me, who has a child. So, we started discussing it, and I remember we had an exchange about whether we should bring up this issue on that panel or not. I don’t remember what happened eventually – I do remember that we had a great time on that panel, anyway… But it was my first thought again about who should come and talk about the topic we are discussing today. Then I took it a step further and, in my preparation for this episode, I did something that I have never done before for any other episode, and that is how today’s discussion will unfold: Our team at WHEN helped me gather questions. I wrote on our beloved Slack, which is the tool we use to communicate internally, that I would be hosting this episode. I didn’t reveal the guest because most of us know you personally and might have had very specific questions, so I didn’t reveal the guest’s name, but I asked us all to think about what questions we wanted to ask for this episode. And I’m going to ask you those questions today.

Katerina: Very nice. 

Pinelopi: So, are you ready?

Katerina: I’m ready. 

Pinelopi: Perfect. So, before I ask the group questions, let me ask you first what caring really means to you, both at work and outside of work.

Katerina: I’m thinking of some keywords. For me, care means providing, creating safe environments for those around me, and caring about the well-being and needs of those around me. What are those needs?

Pinelopi: So, if I combine the last word with the first, it is asking about needs, probably to provide for them on a personal as well as on a professional level.

Katerina: Right.

Pinelopi: I like that cycle. Besides, what we referred to before, about the pandemic, it occured because it was then that we saw it happening very intensely – before it happened behind closed doors as it is happening now too, but then the doors opened through our computers. So, as we said at the beginning, discussions about work and care often focus on parents and caregivers, so I want to start this episode by asking you what this means for those who do not have children or other caregiving responsibilities. Having this conversation may raise the question of what your needs are, and there may be an intention to provide for them, but it may be very focused only on this group: those who have children or have typical caregiving responsibilities, who care for a parent, for another relative, or something else of that sort…

Katerina: Firstly, I would like to point out that this may be the first time I have considered this question myself. I believe that even those of us who do not have the stereotypical caregiving responsibilities tend to assume that we are fine. We do not require any special treatment. So, in general, I think my first reaction when I received the email with the invitation, and its topic, was to gaslight myself.

Pinelopi: What do you mean? Can you explain that?

Katerina: It is like what do I need to be taken care of, who should take care of me and why? I am not sick, I don’t have any burdens, I don’t have children, dogs or cats.

Pinelopi: So why should anyone take care of you?

Katerina: Exactly, it’s like everything’s fine, all’s well. And little by little, as I worked it out in my head, I realised what this means, that “everything is fine”. Now, or a year ago. There was a certain framework for me when this realisation occurred last year. And somewhere along the way, a thread began to unravel slowly which led me to different thoughts on the subject.

Pinelopi: What was then your second thought that made you accept the invitation? Or rather, your third thought, because your second was something like, “I don’t think caring applies to me.”

Katerina: I think I realised that I wanted to convey that at some point we must stop making such stereotypical distinctions between groups. When we start categorising, that’s probably where exclusion begins. We talk about inclusion, and I think the problem starts with the fact that we have decided that there is an average to whom everything applies. We have a framework that covers 80% of cases, and then there are some very specific cases that, okay, now we are obliged to address them too, and we will put some policies in place for these poor people too. I think that’s where our problem starts. We all need care, we all have problems at some point, things happen to everyone.

Pinelopi: And I think it’s not just about that, and this is the next question, it’s not just about the case of emergency “only.” And I come to the question from a member of the team. It’s a big question. Stay with me. “Sometimes, employers’ interest in accommodating staff requests focuses on individuals who have formal care responsibilities.” As we were discussing earlier. “As a result,” says the person who asked the question, “I, who care for a dog, a partner, friends, or simply help my parents, without them being ill, do not feel comfortable expressing this, if I don’t feel that it is important enough,” – and I would add to the question: or even urgent. So, the question arises: “If my needs are not typically important or traditionally important and I don’t feel comfortable expressing them, what is then the problem that arises for me,” – and I will add myself as Pinelopi: for me but also the problem for the rest of the team too. This stereotype that I may not have anything urgent, I may not have parents who are sick, I may not have anyone who is sick. I just have to go to my parents’ house every Wednesday or open a door for someone, for example.  Or take care of a friend of mine who has had something happen to her. What does this distinction you’re talking about mean to me, because it is a kind of exclusion, we could say. That there are 80% of serious caregiving responsibilities and 20% of… Oh, okay…

Katerina: It causes… – again, I’m talking in keywords – the first thing that comes to mind is stress, frustration.

Pinelopi: Nice. Not real nice, but you get the point. Have you felt it?

Katerina: Yes. I mean, it’s like look at what I’m occupying myself with right now…

Pinelopi: Aah!

Katerina: When the other person may have two children to deal with.

Pinelopi: Right, so in relation to other colleagues, let’s say.

Katerina: Yes, and it starts internally first. I mean, I think that many times we do this to ourselves even before anyone else, like a colleague who has formal responsibilities, ever sees us that way. It starts within us. And it can go exactly the other way too. What happens often is me projecting this onto my colleagues. And every so often, I have had to correct myself. In my own team, for example, I may have taken a colleague off a project without realising it, because I thought she wouldn’t be able to run that event on a weekend – “she has a child”. But no – she could have, in reality. And she told me so, and we joked about it. Ever since, we collaborate in a very different way and organize work in a very different way.

Pinelopi: It’s interesting what you are saying, sometimes it does start with us. And how does one adapt? What steps have you taken to change it, if any? In terms of mindset, of not leaving anyone out as you’re saying, which is very important and we’ve discussed it many times on this podcast: we must first ask the question. Do you want to participate in this project? Can you participate in this project? And whether you want or can do it may not have anything to do with caring responsibilities. It comes down to what I think you can and can’t do, but we should not assume, nor take it for granted, that because one may have two children, seven dogs, a sick dad, that someone won’t be able to participate. So, I’ll leave that aside for now… It’s important, but for the sake of the conversation, I’m leaving it aside for now. This internal gaslighting you mentioned, how can it be reversed? I find it hard to believe that it lies solely on our responsibility, as individuals. 

Katerina: Of course not. I don’t mean to jump on the bandwagon of individual responsibility. I think it relates to the frameworks we have created in our professional environments – I am circling back to what I said earlier, basically. The problem starts with this kind of standardisation. It’s as if people, their time, and their relationships with work have become a single standard process, like a concrete assembly line. I don’t have the answer, that’s for sure. I don’t have the solution…

Pinelopi: We can’t have the answers to everything. And I certainly don’t have the solutions either.

Katerina: But I think that if we really want to deal with caring for people and teams, we must perceive them as valuable enough to have them stay on. Because if we don’t care for them, they won’t stay on. From the point of view of non-individual responsibility, going down to collective or corporate responsibility, it’s all about whether we see people as expendable. Like: “Katerina isn’t delivering, now, I’ll change her.” Because she has this or that problem. In my professional career, I once happened to be facing an urgent health problem –a temporary one, fortunately– which, upon my return, simply made me “the one who will cause problems in the future”.

Pinelopi: Okay.

Katerina: The feeble one. The one who gets leaves. There exists this pressure then.

Pinelopi: Being seen as the weak link.

Katerina: Exactly.

Pinelopi: Seen as potentially weak, just because you’d been weak before.

Katerina: In my opinion, as long as we consider team members and employees to be assets, invest in them, and take care of them, they will take care of the company’s well-being – the team’s and everyone’s. It is exactly the same kind of relationships that we build interpersonally. If I just ignore your needs, if I don’t ask how you’re doing, or whether you are able to do something, I can’t be expecting a relationship.

Pinelopi: I’m wondering about that, because you mentioned it earlier, as the last footnote in the opening session of this episode: when I ask about your needs, then I can provide for them, and therefore take care of you. This is what I’d keep as a threefold course of action, as I also like to speak in keywords – I like that. You said it before, that’s the “second thought” – as we call it in our organisation… That second thought we have, wanting to make sure that care has to do with needs, but also including professional needs therein. The example you gave earlier about your colleague and how you made sure to include her. You made sure she was included in the project, even though your first thought was that because she has children, she won’t be able or want to do it, or that she’ll be under pressure, possibly –I’m adding the keywords– if she’d had to work on weekends. In this sense, that is also a kind of caring. What happens then when this is reversed… and I’ll ask my colleague’s question here: “I have felt from employers and colleagues that ‘it’s okay, you don’t have children, you don’t get tired, or you have free time and you can run around, do something extra for work.’” So, that kind of pressure. You’ve felt it too. One question. And what’s your position.

Katerina: I don’t think that I have, not directly.

Pinelopi: Good! That’s great! We’re very happy for you.

Katerina: I mean, it hasn’t been as blunt or straightforward. I don’t think I’ve felt it in terms of workload, but I have felt the difference and this bias… I can share a great anecdote.

Pinelopi: Oh, please do tell us.

Katerina: One day at work, two colleagues decided on their own, without being asked or required to do so – I emphasise this – to perform manual labour that posed a very high risk to their physical integrity. It was, of course, their own responsibility to ensure that a special team would be brought in to do this. However, they did not do so and decided, instead, to climb what I ironically call a “rope ladder”. Meanwhile and on top of it all, they complained to me about it, they said “Look at the danger we got ourselves into, but how could you understand? You don’t have children. We are family men and we must weigh the risks.” In other words, two of my colleagues told me that it didn’t matter if I were to fall and get hurt, instead.

Pinelopi: Just so you know, for those of you who are listening, both me and our colleague here at sound are completely speechless… Go on…

Katerina: No, that was all. That’s the end of the story.

Pinelopi: What did you say?

Katerina: Exactly what I told you. That is, “since I don’t have children, I may as well fall and get hurt.”

Pinelopi: And what did they tell you? I’m not looking for gossip, I’m asking because these discussions… – and I’m not going to play the “if” card now… But I want to say that, not necessarily at that time, but at a later time, these discussions could be, first of all, an incident that opens your eyes to what’s going on… And if you had an HR position or –hypothetically speaking– If you had a position where you could have taken it further and said, “you know what, this happened…” and maybe “the other thing happened too,” and a third and a fourth and so on… “And I realize that there is an issue here, there is a misunderstanding about what we believe and what we think about each other within the company, how people within companies care for each other.” In other words, it could be a breaking point to kick-off this discussion – coming at a later time, not at that moment.

Katerina: Well, not at that moment. The fact that I responded with such sincerity was interpreted as humour, which somewhat mitigated the shock of that remark, because it is truly shocking when someone says that to you. It’s shocking, first of all, to think that they or anyone wouldn’t care about putting anyone’s physical integrity at risk – regardless of their family situation.

Pinelopi: And in reverse, that the risk should be a greater matter when there is a family behind you, a typical family behind you.

Katerina: Yes, exactly, it’s as if no one would cry for me if I fell down the stairs, or I don’t know. It’s laughable. And there’s another revealing anecdote. I call it an anecdote because it usually soothes the situation, because otherwise it’s shocking enough when someone says it to your face – I think the coping mechanism is a bit of fake humour to get it over with. When they scan you from head to toe, comment on what you’re wearing, and say, “But of course, you don’t have children and you have the money to do these things.”

Pinelopi: I see… Not having children can be used in any case: whether it has to do with your life and how much you risk it or not, or whether you have money or not to spend on how you dress.

Katerina: Yes, or you could say, “I went to that event,” or to an opening, an exhibition, a show, etc. and you get “Of course, you have time, since you don’t have children.”

Pinelopi: Let me ask you something, this stereotype…

Katerina: It’s that unnecessary comment which slips in on the spot in a casual conversation. It would never cross my mind if you told me you went to something amazing, wonderful, and did something with your time, to say to you, “Okay, Pinelopi, and what did you do with your kid?” Whereas when I tell someone what I did on the weekend, their thoughts immediately turn to the fact that I don’t have children.

Pinelopi: Let me ask you something: this comment comes mainly –in case you’ve noticed it– from people who have children or who don’t have children. I would say from those who do have children.

Katerina: Yes, that’s correct. I’ve never sat down with any of my friends who don’t have children and said, “Wow, how lucky we are to have time. Imagine if we had children, we would never have come to the concert.”

Pinelopi: Right, you don’t think about it that way. Okay, but even if it happens, it’s not something bad, you know. Nevertheless, I would like to return to what you said earlier, because pursuing professional growth and development –bringing us back to our topic– does not mean that I do not want to be taken care of by the management of the organisation, the company, the institution I belong to, and it certainly does not mean professional burnout. In other words, I may want to have a position of responsibility while leaving on time and not working overtime. I may want to develop while I am being taken care of, within a caring framework so that I am not overburdened because I have no care responsibilities, so that I don’t have to stay until midnight because others have formal care responsibilities and never stay on. This does not mean that care, which is what I want us to discuss, means that I do not seek opportunities.

 Katerina: In any case, I believe that in working relationships, regardless of what ambitions each person may have, whether they want to climb the ladder or not, everything is valid. I completely agree with you, and I think that a keyword I mentioned at the beginning is that there must be a framework. Wherever we want to go, be it with an employer or with a partner, we make a written or unwritten contract and trust from there on. I think that beyond that, yes, I recognize that it is completely irresponsible and out of place and out of time not to distinguish certain groups that have very specific and special needs.

Pinelopi: Good, that’s right.

Katerina: We can’t ignore this, see that everyone is not the same so there’s the individual way. But, at the same time, yes, every person is a special case, yes, there may be single-parent families whose financial background allows for much more and for comfort, and maybe they want to do overtime and everything else. And I think that what should always be at the centre of a professional relationship is that we stick to what we’ve agreed on and that there’s room for care, to be given the opportunity to talk to a supervisor, a colleague, the HR, whomever, depending on the size of the company, I say this because it also depends on the size of the company…

Pinelopi: Yes, we can assume that.

Katerina: …To anyone and everyone who can give me the flexibility to engage in dialogue, to express my needs… Because, if we can’t express ourselves to them, unfortunately, every day we go in the office there won’t be a person who walks over everyone and asks what their needs are today, it’s just not possible.

Pinelopi:  Okay, that’s the job of the future, you’re way ahead!

Katerina: We need open doors, open minds, open ears, so that we can have a dialogue and find a solution. At the moment, when there is no continuing formal permanent traditional responsibility framework, each time we have to talk about the urgency of what happened to me, for example, and find a way to take care of this need without burdening others, at the same time, so that it is mutually beneficial.

Pinelopi: Okay, I’ll keep three words – I’m keeping one new profession and two words, that there should be space and trust. I’ll add one extra word, the question, and I’ll put all of this in parentheses to say two things: One is that I feel we need to create a middle ground – And what is that? It’s the typical responsibilities of care, a group of people, and you’re talking about a group of people who, let’s say, don’t have typical responsibilities of care and something unexpected happens that they need to take care of. Let’s say my dog got sick, okay, I have a child, but let’s say I didn’t have a child and my dog got sick, that’s something unexpected and I have to tell the team, guys, the dog needs surgery, I’m sorry, I’ll be away for two days. But there is also a middle ground, and I want us to sit down for a moment and think about it, not in this episode, generally there is this middle ground, which one of my colleagues mentioned in her questions before… It is not necessary that something urgent is happening to me, it could just be that once a month my dog has to go to the vet. I am using the example of the dog because I can relate to it. Or once a week I need to leave early because my parents live far away and I need to go visit them, for example.

Katerina: Excuse me, I’m going to jump in here for a moment, if we’re going to get into the middle ground, the non-urgent, the non-emergency.

Pinelopi: The non-standard and non-urgent, so life basically.

Katerina: I want to put it differently: that every Friday I have to leave early because I do yoga, and it’s the only time.

Pinelopi: Yes, I agree.

Katerina: Because, as I said earlier, I think that we have the flexibility to create frameworks and relationships within the workplace where this flexibility exists.

Pinelopi: And it may be…

Katerina: Maybe I just have 100 reasons that we don’t need to mention now, and we can’t guess what might be going on with each person.

Pinelopi: And that’s exactly the second thing I wanted to say.

Katerina: For some reason, yes, it might be that I’ve had a burnout. Maybe I don’t do manual labour, I’m just stressed out by a thousand things. I may not even work overtime, but the typical eight-hour day I work may be so stressful.

Pinelopi: Or just maybe, I’m going through a breakup…

Katerina: Yes, also that.

Pinelopi: A divorce, or whatever…

Katerina: Maybe I just need to take a few days off. I need a few days off just to collect myself, to pick up the pieces, to see what’s going on with me, to rest, a thousand things. Which, yes, are part of the plan, and that’s where I’ll come back to the starting point of our discussion, which is that as we open the discussion on inclusion and equal treatment, we begin to see little by little that this whole issue starts from the froth of the average and how exactly we consider it to be the average – and that we are all Greeks.

Pinelopi: It’s no longer an average.

Katerina: Exactly, and I don’t really like the word “special” when referring to the most special groups, but since we’re talking about this dichotomy that exists in our everyday lives.

Pinelopi: Underrepresented may not be the average, may not be the typical traditional average.

Katerina: There, among the most vulnerable and excluded groups of people, the symptom erupts violently, so from the moment we discuss care, it has started from where we saw it erupt. Basically, we were forced, so that they wouldn’t call us malicious and inhumane, to build some frameworks for these people. And gradually, eyes began to open and we began to name our needs and to start recognizing what is wrong and how much we are oppressed in our daily lives… Because that is the starting point: I am on autopilot, I don’t have a sick person at home, I don’t have children who require my constant care, so everything is fine – No.

Pinelopi: No, because I may not be going through a breakup, but I do have my period.

Katerina: Yes, for instance…

Pinelopi: I want to stay with the period because you said before, and as far as I know, there is no such profession as someone who comes by every day and asks what you need, what your needs are, but I also agree that the principle of the matter cannot just be: “Katerina, what do you need? Pinelopi, what do you need?” Instead, asking this question not within a different context every day, I want to ask you what you think this context should be or what you think is needed, because I don’t like the word “should”. What can a team do to find out what is important to you as Katerina, what it entails taking care of you… And then we can group it together… That is, see if this context that will be created and will begin to be implemented on a pilot basis at the beginning could be applied, get feedback, see if it works or not. It may not have emerged, or rather, it may not cover all the needs of Electra (our colleague here at sound), Pinelopi, Katerina, Maria, and Iphigenia, but from these responses, grouped points will emerge, such as the one I am coming to talk about: the period. Policies regarding women who are experiencing a difficult period, perhaps not every month, those times when we have a difficult period and we really can’t go to work or we prefer to work with our blanket if we are allowed that luxury, so now we are also talking about a privileged situation where I can do that, work from home. But I may be working in a warehouse and simply needing to not go to work. This discussion about periods has also arisen from this. From this grouping of these needs. So, caring and periods.

Katerina: Caring and menstruation is definitely an issue, and I’d say I am one of the very fortunate people who have not been affected by it.

Pinelopi: Okay. Me too.

Katerina: That doesn’t mean I don’t notice the world around me, that I don’t talk to other women, or that I haven’t noticed my female colleagues coming in and dragging themselves around, swallowing a pill every couple of hours, while seated next to you at work… That is a problem, they shouldn’t find themselves in the office, they should be somewhere else resting, instead, or at least not having to be in public view in this condition, feeling exposed at the office where anyone can see you like that. I’ll say it again that I wouldn’t know what to suggest and how it could be, as it is not my job to create such systems… It is not my job to design and create systems, so I don’t know if I have an answer to this, but I am speaking from my personal experience of the office ecosystems I have encountered.

Pinelopi: Right, of course.

Katerina: Certainly, I consider it essential that if someone has this need –if a female colleague has this need, more accurately, since we are talking about a very specific need– they should know that this is allowed to happen. But at the same time, for better or worse, the office ecosystem is a bit like that sometimes, it starts to create parent-children dynamics: “Why is she allowed more than me?” I may not have my period or experience it that way, but when I had a hard time, why wasn’t I allowed more? So, I think that overall, if I had to give an answer and a solution to this, I’d say that we should have a policy of two extra days off or five extra remote workdays per month for everyone… That way, others could benefit from it by saving time off the road, if they live far away, and others because they might have difficult periods to deal with. This would create a fairer situation within the team… And no one would have to hear that horrible comment that a woman returning after maternity leave might hear now, that “she’s been on vacation”.

Pinelopi: Yes, of course, an all-time favourite.

Katerina: Horrible and all-time favourite at the same time. Still, it exists.

Pinelopi: I know it well! And you are also raising the issue of trust, and I think we should conclude with that. The trust that I, as an individual, will be offered a framework, what will be set as a framework, that I can make effective and proper use of, to take care of myself and the team at the same time – as well as the trust that I will not exploit it. This is also a matter of building trust within teams in the workplace. That there will be a menstrual leave, that there will be this kind or any other kind of facilitation, but written down and agreed upon. And that we will be able to access it, at least initially, in various teams. There may be a policy for menstruation when I am not a person who has this specific need, but there may be another policy that can cover my own needs… And, I’ll say it again, we should not start by assuming that if we open this discussion, all the needs of the person who comes and asks will be immediately covered. Let’s not start by assuming that if we open this conversation, all the needs of the person who comes and asks us will be immediately met, because small steps are enough as long as we also build that trust that this won’t be subject to exploitation. We are here to take care of each other, not to grab whatever we can. Isn’t that important too?

Katerina: It’s really important, and now that you mention it, I hadn’t thought about that, which is why I’m telling you that it’s not my job to create systems and strategies, but at the same time, I would include the menstrual leave within a framework of discussion on invisible disabilities.

Pinelopi: Invisible disabilities.

Katerina: Yes, that’s exactly right. I have experienced this to a certain extent during some phases in my life. I have daily invisible difficulties, which are not visible – not like a limp, for example. And [I need] a work environment that allows for this, to take up this space, to have an open door where you can say that I experience this, I have this issue… Because the official strategy helps, especially in larger ecosystems, I would say, which goes beyond the level of five people who know each other and have closer relationships. The official policy and official strategy of an organisation or company is what can create trust a priori.

Pinelopi: Perfect. We’ll conclude with that, with the word trust. You may have said it twice, I don’t know what will make it into the final cut, but you said twice that you are not a person who creates systems and procedures, but from the very first minute of the episode, you gave a system and a procedure: that is, asking questions to learn, so that you can provide. Therefore, I see this as a framework that even small organisations and small companies could implement, as these groups are the focus of the CAREdiZo project. All small groups can do this at no particular cost, and we can at least start this discussion with the intention of moving it forward and having it become a policy, a process that will be implemented on a pilot basis and that we can further explore. Thank you very much, Katerina, I really enjoyed it. I hope you did too.

Katerina: Thank you very much for giving me food for thought for many days.

Pinelopi: Thank you very much!

Pinelopi: What did you think of everything that we discussed with Katerina today? What other actions do you think CAREdiZO could develop to bring us one step closer to equality, in and out of the workplace? We are here to read and listen to your suggestions, comments and ideas: follow us on social media, email us, leave a review on Spotify, come and meet us at the WHEN Hub at the centre of Athens and let’s keep the conversation going… to make WHEN –and CAREdiZO– even better for the benefit of everyone, women and men.