What does it mean to care - and why doesn’t it “fit” in our work?

Introduction: Welcome to the new season of WHEN On Topic! I’m Pinelopi Theodorakakou, and yes, you’re not mistaken – our podcast has a new name, as does our organisation. Women on Top is now WHEN; but it continues, just as before, to invest in the professional and economic empowerment of women and in workplace equality, and often, beyond it. This podcast season, for example, is dedicated to caregiving responsibilities and their equal distribution, and it comes to you thanks to CAREdiZO. What is CAREdiZO? It’s a new project we are participating in under the CERV programme of the European Commission. Its aim is to bridge the gender gap in caregiving responsibilities by promoting equality-driven practices at home, in very small businesses, and in small civil society organisations with up to 10 employees. The project supports family-friendly policies, encourages men to participate  in caregiving, and highlights the value of care in society- values we, too, have long been advocating for. Its actions include research, co-creation workshops, training programs, and the development of digital tools, such as an educational game, and podcasts like the one you’re listening to now, all designed to combat stereotypes and promote equality. Our partners come from Cyprus, Lithuania, and Bulgaria, and are currently creating their own podcast episodes, which you may  have the opportunity to discover soon. The second episode of this season is, unsurprisingly, dedicated to care. So, we’re talking with Dimitra Gounari, PCI parent coach and parent educator, about what it really means to care, why care doesn’t quite “fit”, in quotes, into our work, and what needs to happen for a team or a company to truly embed a culture of care into the way it operates.

Pinelopi: Dimitra, welcome to WHEN on Topic. 

Dimitra: Good evening, thank you so much for having me here today. 

Pinelopi: Would you like to tell us in a few words about yourself? 

Dimitra: Yes, of course. As you mentioned, I’m a PCI Parent Coach, which means I support and empower parents. Alongside that, since 2021, I’ve been providing support services for working parents within the workplace. And over the past two years or so, that has evolved from parental support to supporting individuals with caregiving responsibilities in the workplace more broadly. Essentially, through proposals, workshops, training sessions, and talks, I aim to help workplaces become more inclusive of people with caregiving responsibilities. 

Pinelopi: That’s great. Thank you so much for that mini-introduction. I’ll come back toward the end of our conversation to ask what we can actually do in work environments when it comes to care. But first, I’d like to ask: when you hear the word care, what’s the first thing that comes to your mind? 

Dimitra: These days? Because, to be honest, and this has changed over time for me, especially as I’ve been working in the field and interacting with caregivers, it’s definitely evolved. But what I’ve come to understand over time is that care carries responsibility. It also brings exhaustion, and it also includes solidarity. So, there’s a positive element too. On the one hand, there’s responsibility, which I experience as somewhat neutral. Then there’s exhaustion, which has a more negative emotional charge. But the positive element is solidarity. 

Pinelopi: Can I ask you something? I’d like to share my perspective on care and ask if you’ve ever thought or felt the same way. Doesn’t care have a strange sense of time to it? What I mean is: we often find ourselves caring for many people at the same time, in completely different situations. 

Dimitra: Yes, it’s nice that you feel that way, I mean, it’s interesting that it resonates with you. And yes, absolutely. It has a lot to do with how we relate to and interact with the people in our lives throughout it. And maybe that’s what creates this experience of time, the sense that with the same people, in the same roles, as time goes by, we are both giving and receiving care. So, we may be caregivers, but we might also be receiving care from these people at other points in our lives. And that’s what makes things so complex and demanding.

Pinelopi: Do you remember a moment in your life, or a period, personal or professional, when care was a defining element? Either as something you were experiencing or something you were offering? 

Dimitra: Yes, that’s a great question. I think the role of motherhood is almost synonymous with care. For me personally, the first period after my son was born, when I had two children, stands out. When I gave birth to my son, I was working in the private sector. I wasn’t doing what I do now. I was in a different work environment, one that didn’t allow for flexibility. My physical presence was required much more, so the fact that I needed to care for my child at the same time was quite demanding. I remember that time vividly, with all the difficulties that this kind of care brings. Of course, I should say here that this is why the maternal role, precisely because it’s so closely tied to care, often leads us to overlook how difficult it actually is for parents to carry caregiving responsibilities while also working. So that was one period. Another one, which I’ve experienced more recently, was earlier this school year, at the end of the previous one, when my father had to undergo surgery. So I had to step in and support in various ways. My mother is his main caregiver, but there’s also all the additional stuff around that, which for many people is included in daily life, like transportation, emotional support, and so on. And at the same time, I had my own kids, not just one, but two. That made it even harder. There were many caregiving responsibilities occurring simultaneously for different individuals. 

Pinelopi: And you’re highlighting an important point; well, there are so many things we don’t talk about when it comes to care, and that’s actually my next question, but you’re also pointing to something even more invisible: caring for the caregivers. For instance, what you said about your mother, someone may be the primary caregiver for another person, but that person also has needs that require care. And because their time and energy are tied up, even temporarily, whether for a long or short period, someone else needs to take care of the “surrounding tasks,” as you called them. And I want us to stay with that for a moment: why do you think, based on your experience, both in supporting parents and in the workplaces you’ve been a part of, either as an employee or as a coach or trainer, why does care continue to remain invisible in so many of the spaces where we spend so many hours of our lives? 

Dimitra: Yes. For me, perhaps the most important thing is that this conversation is only just beginning in Greece, and very slowly at that. Even abroad, care is so deeply embedded in our very being, especially when it comes to women. The stereotype of the “woman-mother who cares,” who is always there and will always be there to provide, as if it’s an essential part of her existence, makes it really hard to name this as a difficulty, to name it as a separate responsibility. And this makes it so much harder for us to advocate for something better or for measures that could make our path easier. Let me give you an example: every time I run a care awareness workshop, the most important moment is right at the beginning, when we ask, “Do you have caregiving responsibilities?” The first reaction is usually “No.” I think the only thing people tend to identify quickly, if you just ask “Do you have care responsibilities?”, is the role of parenting. But once I start giving other examples, “Has this ever happened to you?” or “Have there been times when…”, then slowly, everyone participating realises that at some point in their life, or even at that moment, they do have care responsibilities. So, I think the first difficulty in doing anything about this is just recognising it. We don’t have it registered in our minds as such. I also want to say this: there’s an argument I often hear, and I understand it to an extent, that “If we talk about everything this way, we lose a bit of our humanity.” Many people have said to me: “But isn’t that just part of being human?” And yes, it is part of our humanity. Yes, we absolutely don’t want to lose that. Yes, support networks and solidarity are incredibly important. But what we’re missing, and what I’m really trying to work toward, is ensuring that this deeply human and beautiful element doesn’t become an obstacle to work, to financial independence, to our dreams, to hope, or to our mental health.

Pinelopi: Dimitra, in relation to what you just said, so there’s a kind of taboo around talking about the needs we have as people with caregiving responsibilities. Like, if I care for someone, there must automatically be some element of self-sacrifice involved. Otherwise, I’m somehow not human enough. I don’t know.

Dimitra: Yes, Pinelopi, that’s exactly right. It’s very present, and it’s especially strong in parenting. I think we’ve all heard the phrase, “Well, they’re your kids, you chose to have them, why are you complaining?” This goes for both mothers and fathers. And something else, which I think is extremely important, and which needs a lot more attention in Greece, and this podcast is a great opportunity to shine a light on it, is the care provided for older adults: our parents, our siblings, women toward their spouses, which is the most common case (though of course the opposite exists too). In those situations, it’s like caregiving must always be, let me put it this way, “from the heart,” and we must always be happy to offer help. But, that’s incredibly hard for the person who is providing the care. Because this emotional expectation is tied to the caregiving role, either one they’ve chosen or simply found themselves in, that expectation puts a huge burden on them. As a result, they often don’t ask for help, and they end up emotionally crushed. And they face a lot of challenges, financial, physical, psychological, and so on. 

Pinelopi: And emotional, yes, what you said, this emotional crushing. That “care” equals something self-evident, “care” equals self-sacrifice, no matter who I’m providing care for. Whether I chose to have kids, so “why complain,” or I’m caring for an aging parent, who once cared for me, then it’s my “role” to do it, and to do it with a smile, with joy, with patience, and with self-sacrifice. And I wonder if this assumption of self-sacrifice, this social expectation, as you beautifully put it, especially when directed toward people who once cared for us in the past. I wonder if that assumption is actually a key barrier to integrating care, to bring it back to the workplace, workplace policies, and the everyday practices of organisations. And let’s note here that because CAREdiZO is a program focused on small businesses and small organisations, I’d like us to focus a bit on those types of environments. 

Dimitra: First of all, yes, I believe this is one of the main obstacles. That’s why I’d say, quite quickly, that perhaps the first policy strategy any business, regardless of size, could adopt in order to introduce a care-focused philosophy is simply to talk about caregiving responsibilities. To define what it means to be an informal caregiver. To identify whether we ourselves are, or have been, or might one day become one. Because in many cases, it’s quite obvious that it will happen at some point. And when I say “obvious,” I mean that we know more or less our own ages, we know that our parents, for example, might begin to experience health issues. So, understanding where I stand, now, in the past, and potentially in the future, is incredibly helpful. When we use that kind of language, like saying, “Are you an informal caregiver?”, then we open the door to the next questions, which are: “What are your needs? What are these care responsibilities?” Because, as you know, this doesn’t look the same for everyone. Care responsibilities might be medical, for instance, I have to give the injections, or I have to hand out my parent’s medication. Or they might be daily and practical, like transportation, grocery shopping, doing tasks around the house or the yard, fixing the lights, keeping an eye on all kinds of things. And then there’s emotional support. Especially when caring for someone with Alzheimer’s, this is extremely important. If you ask people who have cared for a parent with Alzheimer’s, a huge part of that care is just being there, talking with them, spending time, engaging. So, care responsibilities vary, and every responsibility has a specific impact on me. That means I have specific needs in my workplace. And it’s really helpful for this to happen openly. For there to be open conversations. For employers to be aware of this and to ask about it in this way. And for employees themselves to be able to see themselves through that lens, to recognise that caregiving is part of their identity and life, and something that needs to be supported at work.

Pinelopi: I’d say you just very nicely outlined five steps, which we’ll come back to a bit later, probably as we close the episode. But first, I want to return to something you said earlier, about time. Spending time with the person I care for is also an invisible side of care. You outlined three dimensions earlier: First, providing practical care, giving injections, handling medications, driving someone around, and so on. Second, taking care of everything around that, grocery shopping, maintaining the house, running errands, going to public services, transport, all that. And third, just being there. Spending time. Without “doing anything”, in huge quotation marks. Just being there. And I wonder, because one of the main goals of CAREdiZO is to explore and encourage men’s  participationin caregiving, how could strengthening men’s involvement in caregiving affect family dynamics (regardless of what form the family takes), and also have an impact in workplaces? 

Dimitra: This is one of the most important issues. Their role is extremely important, and the entire effort to get men to take on a more active role in these responsibilities is crucial. To begin with, women dominate all the statistics. They are far more likely to find themselves in caregiving roles, especially after age 40. If we think of informal care as one big basket, informal caregivers, about 70% are women. And the majority of those are women over 50. Which, of course, has major implications for their mental health. A large segment is women who care for their husbands, and they are often over 65 years old themselves. That’s also very common. Now, this leads to two major outcomes: Women are more likely to retire early or reduce their work hours because of caregiving. This brings serious economic consequences, for example, if someone begins caregiving at 45 or 50, they’ll later have fewer resources when they themselves are in need of care. And that’s really the cycle of care in people’s lives. What I’m trying to say is, if we don’t act now, in 30 years or so, we’re going to be facing enormous caregiving needs. And since the demographics around aging are not looking favorable in Greece (or in many countries), this raises major concerns about whether we’ll be able to meet long-term care needs. But let me return to your question; sorry for the detour. 

Pinelopi: No, no, not at all. It’s relevant. Because essentially, what we’re saying is that women cannot continue to be the only ones providing care. Even if we wanted to keep doing it, it’s just not feasible anymore. 

Dimitra: Exactly. It puts women at a disadvantage. So, men taking on care responsibilities can absolutely lead to more equal distribution. That, in turn, makes this whole system of informal, long-term care more sustainable and effective. And I think there’s an enormous opportunity for men to take on roles they may have never imagined themselves in, whether we look at this through the lens of stereotypes or not. Because in my view, there’s nothing men can’t do when it comes to the caregiving roles women typically hold. And in the workplace, this might actually be the key that unlocks the conversation more quickly and easily. Meaning, if men start talking about or allowing themselves to openly express their caregiving responsibilities, I think it will greatly benefit women as well, giving them more space to talk and demand real change in the workplace. So yes, it’s extremely important.

Pinelopi: So essentially, what we’re saying is that this is no longer a luxury or a personal choice. Of course, encouraging equal participation in caregiving is the right thing to do, but beyond that, it’s becoming a necessity. 

Dimitra: Yes, it’s definitely a necessity. It’s a necessity because social policy for long-term care is not currently receiving the level of investment that would allow us to say with confidence that, in the coming years, we’ll have the infrastructure or state-supported services to meet the need. Unfortunately. So this caregiving burden will continue to grow, everywhere, not just in Greece. It’s a global trend. And it’s becoming a workplace issue, too, because we’re losing parts of the workforce. Think about it: someone who is 45–50 years old, whether a woman or a man, has already made progress in their career. They’re part of the human capital we want to retain. But, if they’re forced to step back due to caregiving responsibilities, which we know are likely at that age, and then you can’t easily replace them, that becomes a serious issue for employers. It’s no coincidence that this entire conversation often starts in workplaces. Employers are increasingly bringing this issue to the forefront, realising that we need to support the people who provide care to retain the talent we want in our organisations. 

Pinelopi: Do you think small organisations or small businesses might actually have more flexibility to foster a care-centered culture? Precisely because they are small, they have tight-knit, adaptable teams, and they can open up these conversations more easily. The groups are smaller, so it may take fewer resources to implement changes. Or, is it the opposite? That is because they are small, and things already run in a more informal way, they believe they’re already “taking care” of each other, so there’s no need for formal support? So maybe it’s harder for them? 

Dimitra: I think small and medium enterprises come in all shapes and sizes. 

Pinelopi: When we say “small organisations” or “small businesses,” we mean up to about ten people. 

Dimitra: Okay. Well, I think these are workplaces that probably wouldn’t even be able to function, or wouldn’t have lasted this long, if they weren’t already acknowledging caregiving responsibilities in some way. So I definitely think the conversation should happen there, and we also need to develop practical frameworks for those businesses to protect employees with caregiving responsibilities, and to promote structured care policies. Of course, that should happen; it would benefit everyone involved. But I believe these businesses are already doing it, informally, and that actually makes the path forward even easier. In fact, it may be more effective, and perhaps easier, for such a business to simply ask: “What are we already doing to support staff with caregiving responsibilities?”, after first explaining what caregiving responsibilities actually entail. So it’s about building on what’s already happening, and that, in my view, is a very positive starting point for the organisation.

Pinelopi: I’ll say here, though, that even if they are doing it, as you said, they’re doing it informally. That is, in most small businesses or small organisations, and I would even say in larger ones, though we’re focusing on the small, there are no official policies that recognise me as an informal caregiver, or that offer me any kind of flexibility or support I might need, if not now, then certainly in the future. And I think this is exactly where the problem lies: It’s all happening informally. And what does “informal” mean? It means it’s easily changeable, depending on needs, but usually those of the business, not the employee. So I’ll push back a little on what you said earlier, about whether or not these things are already happening. 

Dimitra: I completely agree with you. That’s exactly right, it happens informally. And not just in small organisations; it happens everywhere, which is the problem. I just believe that small businesses might be able to transition more effectively to something formal. Because they’re already doing it in some way, they could more easily formalise it. The real difficulty, I think, lies more in the nature of small businesses, not in caregiving itself or the cost it imposes on day-to-day operations. It’s more about their resistance to formalising things; that’s often just how small businesses operate. And of course, Pinelopi, I completely agree, it’s not enough to leave it up to personal discretion. It shouldn’t be up to me, for example, to decide whether to give you leave because your father needs you, or your kids called from school and they’re sick. That shouldn’t be my decision alone. Because that’s not a policy; that’s just us relying on “goodwill” or informal arrangements. And that’s not enough. Of course, for a small business to function, this more “family-like” atmosphere has helped build an informal support network. But what we’re saying is: If we could formalise that, if we could turn it into clear procedures, then maybe it’s actually easier to do so in workplaces where it’s already happening informally. I’m not sure if I said that clearly.

Pinelopi: Very clear, no worries. Earlier, you mentioned some practical steps a team or a business could take to integrate this culture of care that we’re talking about. Here’s what I took away, four main steps: Start talking about care. Clarify and discuss the concepts around care; what does “care” mean? What’s an informal caregiver? Understand where we stand, as individuals or as a team, in the “care cycle.” Are we in the thick of it? Just before it? Just after? All of the above? Start planning for prevention, recognising what needs are coming (and they will come), especially for people with less power or more responsibilities. So to do that, we need a needs assessment before any kind of prevention planning. Only then can we create or strengthen any care-related policies we already have (if any). That’s what I’ve taken from our talk: Talk, define the terms, assess needs, know where we are, and plan for prevention. 

Dimitra: You said it beautifully. 

Pinelopi: We said it well. Well, you said it, really. If you could change just one policy in an organisation, just one practical step that could bring immediate results and be the starting point, what would that policy be?

Dimitra: Mind if I say one and a half?

Pinelopi: No, not at all. Go ahead, say one and a half. 

Dimitra: I’ll keep it very practical because I know you like that a lot.

Pinelopi: I really, really do.

Dimitra: In every document where the employee is recorded, could be the onboarding form, an evaluation questionnaire for a workshop, anything, any document that shows the employee’s details, I would add a blank line that says: ‘If you are, have been, or may be responsible for caregiving.’ And that’s the one. This would create an important change, because someone might see that question and reflect: ‘What do they mean here?’ The other ‘half’ is that I would definitely recommend having  talks and training workshops for managers and employers in small businesses so that they are informed about what it means to be an informal caregiver. 

Pinelopi: I think you just stole the show, because that ‘half’ is actually a huge step! So to recap: the first step is a simple question: ‘Are you, have you been, or might you be responsible for caregiving?’ This means making the role visible and making visible those with caregiving responsibilities. Then, the next step, which is not half but a whole one, is a talk or workshop. A way to turn that question into a real discussion. Am I saying this right?

Dimitra: Yes, yes.

Pinelopi: Finally, this is a personal question for you, and I hope it will help others too, If you could send a message to people with caregiving responsibilities who feel guilty because they think they’re caring too much, and so they’re leaving other things behind, or that they’re caring not enough, and so they feel bad about it, what would that message be? Let’s close with that.

Dimitra: That what you’re doing is incredibly hard. That we thank you, even those of us who don’t directly receive your care, but know that you participate in a very important network. And that it’s okay to feel whatever you feel, negative, positive, pride, exhaustion. Maybe I would also ask: “Do you need anything?”

Pinelopi: Perfect. Dimitra, thank you so much for your time and for all the important things we discussed. We’ll talk again about caregiving responsibilities and everything else.

Dimitra: Of course. Thank you!

Pinelopi: Dimitra, where can people find you?

Dimitra: You can find me on social media. I post often, so you can follow me to stay updated about talks, workshops, and wherever else we might meet.

Pinelopi: Perfect. Thank you so, so much. Take care!

Closing: How did you find today’s conversation with Dimitra? What else do you think CAREdiZO can bring us to take one step closer to equality at work and beyond? We’re here to read your comments, suggestions, and ideas. Follow us on social media, send us an email, leave us a review on Spotify, come meet us at WHEN Hub, and let’s keep the conversation going to make WHEN and CAREdiZO even better for everyone.