WHEN on Topic: How to overturn traditional roles in caregiving?

Introduction: Welcome to the new season of WHEN On Topic. I’m Penelope Theodorakakou, and I’m back with you to discuss women’s professional and economic empowerment and equality at work. Sometimes even outside of it. This season of our podcast is dedicated to caregiving responsibilities and their equal distribution, and it comes to you thanks to CAREdiZo. What is “CAREdiZo?” It’s a new project we’re involved in as part of the European Commission’s “CERV” programme, which aims to bridge the gender gap in caring responsibilities by promoting equality practices at home, in micro businesses, and small civil society organizations employing up to ten people. The project promotes family- friendly policies, encourages men to participate in caregiving, and highlights the value of caregiving across society, which is what we have been aspiring to for so long. Its activities include research, co-creation workshops, training programmes, and the development of digital tools, such as an educational game, for example, but also podcasts like the one you are listening to here today, to fight stereotypes and promote equality. Our partners are based in Cyprus, Lithuania, and Bulgaria and are currently creating their own podcasts, which you might have the chance to get to listen soon. In this episode of the podcast, we’re talking with Poppy Sevastou, a mom and bartender, and Mina Habib, a mom and communications manager – a couple and parents – to have an open conversation about how traditional caregiving roles are being redefined. Together, we discuss how they share everyday responsibilities, what challenges and stereotypes they encounter, and what changes they’d like to see so that care becomes fairer and more inclusive for all families. Mina and Poppy, good evening.

Mina: Good evening from us, too.

Poppy: Hi Penelope, good evening, and thank you so much for giving us the chance to be here with you today.

Penelope: Thank you so much as well for accepting the challenge—did I say that right? Would you like to start by introducing yourselves to our listeners? Poppy, do you want to go first?

Poppy: Sure. I’m Poppy Sevastou, as you mentioned earlier. I’m a bartender –  I make drinks, I try to enjoy my day, and I really love being a mom. That’s me. Do you want to know anything else?

Penelope: No, but let me just note – when you say you make drinks, this usually means you work at night, correct?

Poppy: Right, not always, but yes, at the moment, you’re absolutely right. I work at night.

Penelope: Okay. Mina?

Mina: I’m Mina Habip. I’m a mom and I work as a communications manager for a large cosmetics company. Right now, I’m on maternity leave. I’m with Poppy –  we’re both moms to our little one, who’s ten months old. And I also really love being a mom and spending time with our baby.

Penelope: And let’s just say – their ten-month-old is currently having some creative playtime at the Hub’s childcare space, which is mainly why you’ve both been able to join us here today.

Mina: We’re really lucky for that, and thank you.

Penelope: I want to take a step back. Before you became parents, before you became moms/mothers – and this is a question you can probably only answer now that you are parents.  Looking back, how did you imagine your role as a parent before having a child? That’s the first part of the question. And how has it actually turned out to be? I’d like to hear both the good and the not-so-good parts.

Mina: Do you want to start, Poppy?

Poppy: Yes, of course. I’ll start, because I was the first one in our family – and we were a family even before Alkis came along,  we didn’t suddenly become one now — but I was the one who started pushing for it. I’m also a bit older than Mina, so something had been stirring inside me for a while. Actually, if I go further back, it had been there for many years; I always used to say that I wanted to have a child, ever since I was a kid. Back then, I even thought it would be with a man! But I finally made it happen at 41, well, actually 42. It took me a bit longer than I would’ve liked, but I got there. So, it’s something that had always been in my mind, like I knew exactly what I was supposed to do. And honestly, I don’t see much of a difference—only joy. It all feels natural; it just flows. I wouldn’t call the challenges “difficulties.”  I’d just say there are some everyday emergencies, but they always get sorted out because, thankfully, I have a great team around me. So for me, there is nothing I can say about “before” and “after.” It all just came together naturally.

Penelope: Like there’s a kind of flow, right? Like it came naturally to you.

Poppy: Exactly. Maybe also because I had been waiting for it for so long—that probably played a role.

Penelope: Nice. I’m holding on to that word you used – team. I’ll come back to it later, because “team” can mean so many things: the people you work with, your community, your support network. I’ll circle back to that. Mina, what about you—the before and after?

Mina: For me, to be completely honest, it’s exactly how I imagined it. The feeling I had while waiting and anticipating this to happen – the excectation has lived up to that 100%. There’s so much joy, so much tenderness, so much care, and such a deep sense of fulfillment. Of course, there are also difficulties, everyday challenges, and moments of exhaustion, but what truly stands out, what outweighs everything else, is the joy.

Penelope: Tell me one of the hard parts.

Mina: I’d say it’s this constant fatigue – a kind of underlying anxiety and sense of responsibility. They’re new feelings for me, but it is exactly what I imagined they’d be. Being with Poppy as my partner and raising a child together has turned out exactly as I pictured it — it just fit naturally into my life. I had been waiting for this little one for such a long time, so maybe that also plays a role; I was really prepared for what was coming. So, nothing about it has surprised me. Of course, there’s the weight of responsibility and the tiredness, but they don’t overshadow the joy.

Poppy: Yes, because in our case, since we’re two women, this wasn’t something that just “happened.” It was planned  many times, actually. So imagine that with every failed attempt – I mean through in vitro fertilization (IVF) – we got closer and closer to the reality we were envisioning. Naturally, there are challenges; it would be unfair to say we’re these two crazy women claiming that having a child is perfect and effortless. It’s just that, so far, those difficulties haven’t dominated our daily life, yet.

Mina: I’ll say something that might come up later in our conversation. I think it plays a huge role that we’re two women. Stereotypically, there’s no idea of “I have a husband who helps” or “I have a very supportive partner.” Everything is shared equally, by default. And that in itself probably helps a lot. But since that’s simply the kind of family we are, we haven’t really stopped to think deeply about how it works in other families.

Penelope: I want to note two things here, because my next question is about how you divide caregiving responsibilities; how you manage your everyday life. But first, I want to go back to something Poppy said, because IVF is something many couples go through — all the effort, the years, the failures. Still, it matters, because both of you mentioned that this joy you feel in describing parenthood might have a lot to do with how much you longed for it, how hard you tried for it. And of course, that’s not to say that other couples who have also tried and struggled don’t feel the same way once it finally happens, it can still be just as fulfilling.

Mina: Yes, exactly. 

Penelope: Right. So just noting that. You’ve both mentioned a few times that it’s significant that you’re two women. Mina, you made a great point earlier – in another episode of this series, we actually talked about care from the perspective of a dad, a husband, a male partner. And we discussed exactly that – how men can be more involved, and how much fairer the world would be if that were the case, even in heterosexual couples. But now, let’s get practical. Since right now, Mina, you’re on maternity leave and not working yet, how do you share caregiving duties in your everyday life? Who puts Alkis to sleep?

Mina: Oh no, no. That’s not even a question! We actually argue over who gets to put him to sleep, who gets to feed him, who gets to change him.

Penelope: Things I never argued about!

Poppy: Everything’s equal. But even before Alkis, things were equal. We’ve always been a team, a family, even before the baby. So it just carried over naturally once he arrived. I don’t even think of us as “two women” in that sense. And looking back now, I actually think that’s better – otherwise, it would sound like we’re excluding men completely. That’s not what we’re saying at all. We’re not saying, “All women should just get together and have children with each other.”

Mina: I’m saying it more in a stereotypical way.

Poppy: Honestly, when you become a parent and it’s something you truly want, isn’t it only natural that you take care of your child? What else would it mean? I work nights, sure, so what? Of course I’m tired in the morning, but I’ll still get up to change him, to wash him. And Mina’s tired too, because while I’m at work, she’s at home with the baby, worrying, maybe waking up during the night. So it all just balances out naturally. We share everything. The only thing I don’t really share  and that’s just because I enjoy it,  is cooking. I like doing that. But Mina does something else in return.

Mina: What do you mean? That you are the one who cooks for Alkis? 

Poppy: Not for Alkis, for us. We live in the house too. 

Mina: I think I completely agree with Poppy. Everything is shared equally. I can say no to things that don’t feel balanced or that I simply don’t enjoy doing — and sometimes Poppy prefers to take on something that I find difficult or just don’t want to do. What’s beautiful is that we share things out of choice, not obligation. It’s an equal partnership because we want it that way. And really, that’s how it should be.

Penelope: That’s exactly how it should be. But let me just point out that, in reality, it often isn’t for many reasons. Why? Because in heterosexual couples – and probably especially in heterosexual couples – gender roles still exist. There are these traditional gender expectations that say the male partner is the “provider,” to put it bluntly, while the woman, whether she works or not, ends up carrying a much larger share of the caregiving responsibilities.And that can take many forms and this leads to my question. I’ll give you a moment to think about it. This imbalance can happen regardless of whether the woman is employed or not, and it shows up in so many ways — for instance, having to take on a “second” or even a “third” shift after coming home from work. So my question is this: you two describe what sounds like an ideal situation 

Mina: It’s not ideal, not at all. 

Penelope: Good, then let’s talk about the not-so-ideal, because if I were a mom listening to you right now and not experiencing the same thing, I’d probably turn to my partner -Giannis, Maria, depending on who I’m with – and say, “We must be doing something wrong, love. What are they doing so right?

Mina: I’ll tell you, Penelope – in our case, something that makes a huge difference is that Poppy works in the afternoons and evenings. That means in the mornings, there are two of us taking care of our baby. And beyond the practical side of caregiving – which, of course, involves responsibility and exhaustion – there’s also joy. So we get to share not only the effort but also the happiness that comes with it. I think that’s important to note. And also, right now I’m not working – that’s definitely a big factor.

Pinelope: I’ll come back to that. 

Mina: I thought you might – and honestly, I’m a bit nervous about both the question and the moment itself! But yes, I think we’re speaking from the reality of our current situation as a family. Just to be clear, we’re not saying everyone should break up or that everyone should be in homosexual relationships.

Poppy: Absolutely not. Personally, I don’t agree with that at all.

Penelope: Great, let’s go there. 

Poppy: I completely disagree. I mean, Giannis or Maria, whoever you’ve got sitting across from you, since you mentioned those names, you’re wrong. Take responsibility. You have a child. I’ll be a bit blunt here: I understand if you’re tired, and sure, I can step in. But listen, this applies to everyone – to men, to heterosexual couples, even to men who actually do a lot for their kids. Because such men exist. Not everyone fits the same mold. Let’s not flatten everything. There are also women who don’t take part as much.

Penelopi: For sure, though they’re not the majority. And that’s not just based on experience, it’s backed by research. It’s numbers.

Poppy: Still, it is worth mentioning. 

Penelopi: We actually had a guest like that in a previous episode – Vasilis Tsolis, of course.

Poppy: Really? No way! So they do exist.

Penelope: We had to look for him, though. That’s the difference.

Poppy: Well, from my own circle, I know two.

Penelope: That was exactly my question, whether what you’re experiencing, either as a family with two moms or simply as a family, is something you also see reflected around you.

Poppy: I’d say that, fortunately, we do see families like that around us — families where the male partner or husband is really involved and genuinely willing to take part. Even if, in the end, it’s not a perfect 50-50 split, there’s still a real intention and effort to share things more equally. So yes, I’d say that in our circle, we do see examples like that.

 Mina: Yes, maybe it’s because we’re part of a more modern pattern.

Poppy: Maybe that’s why/That might be to blame too.

Penelope: And I think I’ll put “blame” in quotation marks here, because sometimes, -actually most of the time-  the people around us tend to share our views and values. They’re usually the ones who make up our closest network.

Poppy: I’ll tell you what –  the people I’m thinking of aren’t necessarily similar to us in terms of mindset. In my mind, I’m picturing more traditional Greek families. But even in those families, I see the male partner being really involved.

Penelope: What do you think is working well there, from what you observe?

Poppy: The couple really loves each other, you know? There’s mutual respect. For example, my friend respects that her husband worked a night shift until eight in the morning, so she takes on a bit more that day. And when he wakes up and feels rested, he says, “Okay, let me take over now.” And honestly, come on, is it really such a big deal for a man to hang up his wife’s underwear on the clothesline? I mean, seriously. It’s 2025!

Penelope: You don’t want to ask me that question.

Poppy: Right, I probably shouldn’t ask you.

Penelope: And I’ll tell you why,  because when we talk about how care and responsibilities are divided, yes, of course part of it depends on the couple. But it’s not only about the woman or the man saying “help me” or “support me” or “let’s share this.” That would make it sound like it’s just a personal issue  and it’s really not. It’s systemic, it’s social, and it’s deeply tied to the stereotypes and biases we all grow up with.

Mina: I’d even say it’s institutional, Penelope.

Penelope: Exactly. 

Mina: The fact that women are entitled to maternity leave, while fathers, only very recently, got 14 days off.

Penelope: From the two days it was when I gave birth.

Mina: So even institutionally, there’s still that gap. But I feel that society is moving forward.

Penelope: Really? That’s how you feel?

Mina: At least that’s what I sense from my surroundings. I see that new couples, new male partners, are much more involved and far less traditional. Poppy, do you feel the same, or do you have a different impression?

Poppy: I’d agree with you. You know, because we’re over 40, our married male friends grew up with roughly the same mindset as we did – like my mother, my brother, my aunt, my cousin, and so on. So they’re mostly the same. But I do see that things are changing. And you know why? Because they have to change. Women work now, they speak up, they assert themselves. And obviously, I’m talking about my own circle. I don’t live in a remote village in Xanthi. I know what I’m talking about. I’m not as romantic as I might sound, thinking everything is perfect, that all men help and everything’s great;  that’s not what I mean. I just see real change happening, you know?

Penelope: You see it. And that’s important. I’ll just add that usually, the network we hang out with doesn’t only reflect principles or values-  it’s also about the bubbles we live in. I call it living in bubbles. In English, they say, I’m preaching to the choir-  we hear what we want to hear, in a way.

Mina: Yes, that’s true, because I think we end up surrounding ourselves with a circle that feels like a safe space where everyone feels comfortable. It makes sense. Of course, you keep your radar up and see what’s happening outside of that bubble, but I agree with what you said, and I also think there’s a reason why things happen that way.

Penelope: What’s your bubble, then? Who are the people, friends, family, your community, not by name, of course, but who’ve played a role in your daily life? You both mentioned that it was a journey to get here. A journey you’re living in Greece, which, yes, has made many steps forward but still isn’t where it should be.

Poppy: By no means.

Penelope: I’ll say it, but you’ll explain it better. So what’s the network that’s supported you, and how important has that network been? That’s really what I want to understand.

Poppy: The truth is, the network we’ve built over the last twenty years that Mina and I have been together is very safe. So if we trace it from day one until now, it continues to grow stronger. We have a fair number of people around us, but we also have some who don’t want to hear about this at all. And that’s how it is; they’re from our very close circle. The point is, we are strong ourselves, and we keep what we want, we listen to everything, and from there, we try our best for our family. Our network is large.

Mina: Yes, we do have quite a few, that’s true.

Poppy: You know, we kind of got carried away talking to the audience here, but maybe I should just stop before I go further.

Mina: Go ahead, say it.

Poppy: No, okay,  but you say it too. Answer as well.

Mina: I’d say that throughout this whole journey, most of the people we encountered were on our side  or at least indifferent, which in reality translated to “okay, fine, and why are you telling me this?” I remember very clearly when we went to the doctor. I’ll mention here that we also faced the issue of “you’re two women, we can’t take responsibility for you.” We could probably do an entire podcast just about that. But this was before the law was passed, and it’s really important –  because technically, before the law, what we were doing would have been illegal.

Poppy: It was illegal. I would go along to sign, but I didn’t even sign anything . Mina had to sign a paper that said “single, unmarried woman.” I was right there with her. It was completely ridiculous.

Mina: Still, the doctors who were with us along the way, they were like “okay, fine, whatever.” But it matters to me that the doctor included Poppy in the cesarean. In other similar cases, a partner, spouse, or father might not even be allowed. And of course, the fact that she was allowed to hold the baby – those are really encouraging signs for me. Not for society at large, but for people. It gives me hope that there’s empathy around us, which is very important to me. Within my very close circle and this is Poppy’s circle too, my family plays a huge role. They’re supportive and present. That’s significant. And then there are people from our professional lives, from our circle of friends. We have many friends we’ve known for a long time, and we’ve all grown up together in a sense.

Penelope: What role does this supportive network play? How important is it to have a network like this, whether it’s small or large?

Poppy: I’ll speak from a professional perspective. Personally, my employer didn’t question that I would take two weeks off. I said, “Kostas, Mina is giving birth.” And he said, “Yeah, okay, fine, a month – that’s your right.” I told him, “I’m entitled to a month, I’m a mom,” and they said, “Yes, a month, no problem.” I got paid as usual, my benefits were fine, and they were supportive afterwards too –  hugs, kisses, everything was great. Our friends were all there, before and after, helping us as we raised our child. Everyone together;if I think back 20 years, a photo might show eight people, and now it’s suddenly sixteen.

Penelope: Which could have been fewer, but that’s what you meant earlier, Poppy — that not everyone around us is ready to hear about or understand our needs. And I’m saying this in a general sense.

Poppy: Also, our friends – our close circle – are straight couples with or without kids, or single women or men. We have gay friends too, but let’s not put labels on it. The people around us, who we’ve grown up with, I don’t know if “open” is the right word, but they’ve accepted our situation.

Mina: Honestly, what we all need is empathy. Just a little empathy in everything, especially when it comes to care. Even in a heterosexual couple, empathy matters. When someone next to you is exhausted, anxious, or completely overwhelmed, that should ring a bell. You can’t have the person beside you falling apart while you just go on living your own reality. It has to be a team effort, that’s what it means to share a life. There’s no other way.

Penelope: You mentioned earlier the doctor who said, “We can’t take you on”,  before the law passed, okay. What other, smaller or bigger barriers or stereotypes have you come across that really got to you?

Poppy: You know what? He’s still so little, so I’d say we haven’t really been that exposed yet.

Penelope: Right, that makes sense.

Poppy: But even if it does happen, we won’t allow it. Personally, I won’t allow anyone to upset or pressure me. I have this thing. How can I put it… I want what we did to not be anyone else’s concern. Just like I don’t care what anyone else does. If you’re a boy who wants to dress like a girl, or a girl who wants to shave her head, or a woman who wants to drive a truck, that’s your business. So, listen, don’t care about what I do either. That’s just how I see it, deep down.

Penelope: Mina?

Mina: For me, it wasn’t so much annoying as it was outrageous, like what I mentioned about the IVF center, to be completely honest. But then, when we went through the process of getting a passport for the baby… First, I should mention that we’re in the process of Poppy adopting the baby as the second parent. There’s a law now, but it still doesn’t fully recognize the partner as a parent. So at this moment, the baby has only one legal parent – me, because I gave birth – until the adoption process is complete.

Penelope: Which is a long process.

Mina: Yes, to finalize it takes almost three years. We’re six months in, and the social services’ investigation went perfectly. Now it’s up to the judges and our lawyer. Luckily, we have a very competent, kind lawyer, so we’re not worried. The law has passed, but unfortunately…

Poppy: The fact that the law passed has created a very different kind of attitude for you, I think.

Mina: The word is different. We’re now visible.

Penelope: And institutionally too.

Mina: It’s really important. So, I went through the process of getting a passport for Alkis — he was five months old at the time. I showed up as a single woman with a child. And the officer there, in a very central police department in Athens, kept insisting on asking me, “Who is the father?”

Poppy: We should mention it. It was in Metaxourgeio.

Mina: Yes, it doesn’t really matter, a very polite man, who was trying, in his own subtly intrusive way, to ask me who the father was…. In the end, I just said, “There is no father.” It didn’t feel like a safe space to explain the type of family we are, and that bothered me quite a bit. Long story short, he ended up advising me to go to City Hall and just give a “placeholder” name for the father –  a Giorgos, a Kostas, a Giannis – so that the passport wouldn’t say “father unknown.” I found it kind of funny at the time. But I’ll say this: right now, there’s a tiny baby, so maybe that’s why I could laugh about it. If the same thing happened when our child was five years old, I don’t think I’d find it funny at all. I felt uncomfortable and weird.

Penelope: Poppy said something very important earlier, that Alkis is still very little, just ten months old, and you haven’t really been exposed to that kind of situation yet. I truly hope, with all my heart, that you’ll have to face as few of those as possible. But as you said, when Alkis turns five, you might be dealing with that again. Let’s hope we’re all well and can see how things have evolved by then.

Mina: I believe that by then, things will have changed institutionally. For example, we were just looking at something related to schools, there was a form that said “mother’s name, father’s name.” I talked it over with Poppy, who saw it differently from me. She said, “Well, that’s obviously going to evolve – it’ll become Parent 1, Parent 2, or something like that. It doesn’t matter how it’s written.” And she said, “Okay, so what do we do now? We’re put in an awkward position – I will just cross it out and write mother’s name again”. So it’s really about how you choose to see things.

Penelope: And it’s also about how the other side – the schools, for example – keeps up with the times. Change is happening, but we need it to happen faster. Though, just to slightly dishearten you, I’ll share something that happened to me yesterday: I called a bank to cancel an appointment because I wasn’t feeling well. The appointment was to find out what I needed to do to add my underage child as a co-holder on my account.

Mina: Oh, do tell. We’re interested.

Poppy: Do you want to talk about it now? That’s for another podcast.

Penelope: So they told me: “Of course, I can see here that you have these accounts and you’re the legal representative for these two companies and so on… and what’s your husband’s name?” I said, “I don’t have a husband.” He said, “What do you mean?” I said, “I don’t have a husband.” And the answer was, “That’s not possible.”  I said, “Because I don’t have a husband? I mean, I’m just asking so that when I feel better and come in tomorrow or the day after, you can tell me what I need to bring because having a husband is definitely not one of them.”

What I mean is, this isn’t just an issue that affects the community; it’s a broader one. That person didn’t even know the basics to ask something like, “Are you divorced? Has your husband passed away? Anything?” No question at all. Just: “It’s not possible.” Completely out of touch. And that’s a matter of structure, of education. And we’re talking about a straight person.

Poppy: From personal experience, when we went to the town hall to get married, the people there were actually really chill about it. It was like someone had told them, “Just let them do their thing. It’ll be worse for us if we make a scene.” Because, honestly, we’ve started raising our voices too; there are so many activists and strong groups out there, one of them being Rainbow Families (Greece). It’s worth mentioning that because  they’ve done so much so that we can now be here, speaking openly, commenting on current events/affairs, being visible. And that makes me feel really good.

Mina: I have to say, whoever we’ve had to deal with, I’ve been pleasantly surprised. I’ll be honest. That doesn’t mean something bad won’t happen eventually. But, like Poppy said, it’s as if there’s been an unspoken memo: “Be careful,don’t mess this up and end up on TV.”

Penelope: That’s the sense I get, and it’s a good one, actually.

Poppy: Well, obviously we turn our backs and they say things, but we don’t care.

Penelope: Okay, fair enough. But when you actually care does matter. Because you might be – you know, we often say this in different contexts – like, I could say: “If someone makes a sexual remark at work, I’ll blow up, I’ll shut it down immediately.” But that can’t be the standard, whether I’m strong enough to handle it or not. People should just not make sexist jokes. They should just not be sexist. So it’s not only about whether I can deal with it or whether I have a strong personality.I remember talking once with a friend who’s a civil engineer – she’s on construction sites day and night. She said, “I go however I want – in boots, in a short skirt, whatever – and if someone says something, I’ll tell them off.” And we had this talk – like, okay, but because you’re 40+, empowered, confident – what about a young woman, just starting out, working hard to get that job after her studies (or even before finishing them)? If she doesn’t have that same toughness to say, “Excuse me?” – we can’t put the responsibility on her. That’s a social issue.

Mina: No. 

Penelope: That’s why I say it’s not just about strength of character. You said, “You two are strong, you don’t care, nothing bothers you” but it shouldn’t be happening in the first place.

Mina: Absolutely. I do appreciate, though, that even if there’s gossip behind our backs, people behave with a kind of discretion. I’ve really been impressed. And that man I mentioned earlier, the police officer, with all the stereotypes that come with that job, I found him kind of funny. He was trying so hard to be discreet, and yet, what he was suggesting wasn’t discreet at all. But yeah, I’m over 40, and I can handle those kinds of people now.

Penelope: Sure  and it’s not just about age. It depends on where you are in life, where you’re going, many things.

Mina: We’ll talk again in three years, when people at the beach start asking Alkis, “Where’s your dad?” or when he says, “I have two moms,” and everyone stares.

Poppy: People are learning. My niece, since she was very little, would go up the stairs and tell her friends: “My aunts live here,” and then, “My dad, mom, and I live here, and over there live my uncle and aunt.” Kids learn. The new generations are coming  fast. And even if I used to hide it for years, or now I don’t have great relations with my own family, that has nothing to do with what Alkis will choose to do. whether he’ll have kids with his husband one day, or whether my niece will decide to have a child on her own. They’re learning, and as parents, we’re here to encourage them.

Penelope: I think this is the most optimistic episode of this entire series, maybe even of the whole podcast, to be honest.

Poppy: Penelope, we are here to raise our children and teach them how to love and not who to love. 

Penelope: Okay, that’s what we say, but not everyone believes that, I’d say.

Mina: On the other hand, you know how in Greece we always use that “yes, but…” expression; there’s always a “but.” Anyway, we have to start somewhere, right? Each of us, from our own little circles.

Penelope: Absolutely! Right! From our bubbles. Exactly! Let me bring you back to reality for a second.

Mina: Hmm.

Penelope: Because, Mina, you’ll be going back – by the time this podcast is out, you might have already gone back.

Mina: I don’t really know how the schedule’s going.

Penelope: So, I wanted to ask:  how do you imagine your return to work?

Mina: Difficult. I’ll interrupt you to say that it is right away difficult.

Penelope: What worries you about it, and what would you like to be different this time, in a realistic framework, I mean?

Mina: What worries me is the lack of time. I can already see it, not just imagining it – from my past daily routine, from what I see around me. It’s a constant race, and what really bothers me is that time won’t be quality time. In an ideal world, I’d love to spend these first few years of my child’s life actually being present. So yes, I’m anxious about the lack of quality time and about not being fully there.

Penelope: Given that you will be returning to work and given that you will be returning to a job where you are an employee of a company, theoretically, let’s say that, legally at least, you have an eight-hour day and some time to get to work and some time to get back from work, so let’s put these practical facts down, what would you like to happen differently from what you know and from other women who have returned from maternity leave, in the same workplace or in others from friends, etc. What would you like to happen differently?

Mina: I’ll speak realistically.

Penelope: Realistically, okay.

Mina: Because my ideal scenario would be… for every company to have a space where…

Penelope: Go on, say it.

Poppy: Here, they actually do have that, Mina. Are you looking for a job? (laughs) They’re doing great work with that here.

Mina: My ideal scenario would be to work for a big company, one located in a shared space with other big companies – multinationals, for instance. And there could be a space for all the kids of those – I’ll say it – “poor”, tired moms and dads, let’s include the dads too – where childcare is available on-site. I mean, what could be more normal than that? I think the current system, at least in our country, doesn’t really help anyone, not any member of the family. So, realistically, I’d want a more flexible work arrangement; something that allows me to be more present, more “here.”

Penelope: And given that in the next two, three, maybe four months when you go back, that space won’t have been built yet, what’s the next, slightly less ideal but still flexible scenario that would help you?

Mina: You mean in terms of work, right?

Penelope: In terms of work, yes.

Mina: To ask for a more flexible schedule, to actually demand it, to prioritize this new situation I’m in. I can’t think of anything else more realistic. And beyond that, to create – if it exists – a support system that helps you feel a bit more at ease, even if you can’t always be physically present.

Penelope: Poppy, Mina’s going back to work; let’s say a 9-to-5 job.

Poppy: It’s not 9 to 5, guys, that’s the thing, because it’s an hour before, half an hour to get ready, an hour after to come back, a quarter to half an hour to calm your head down, it’s more than that.

Penelope: What worries you about this scenario, and what would you like to see happen?

Poppy: I would like Mina to spend more time with the child and with me. Fortunately for our family, I don’t work in the mornings at the moment, so yes, there is…

Penelope: One of the two parents will be there.

Poppy: Right, exactly. If there’s a gap – “oh no, what do we do now?” – we’ll find a way. But it’s really hard with daycare. Why do they close at 5 p.m.? What time is a parent supposed to leave work?

Penelope: Mmm.

Poppy: I mean, really. Those of you who’ve been parents longer, how did you manage? Did you have to… 

Mina: Like you said,  it’s a race.

Poppy: Yes, but you know, that’s not very humane.

Penelope: No, it’s not. In Greece, you depend on your support network.  You need a grandma or a grandpa.

Poppy: Yeah but that’s not right either; or you end up paying 30 euros to someone to help you out, and I mean, come on, we’re both salaried workers.

Mina: On the other hand, at this point, since we keep having this discussion with Poppy, how many hours could you leave a baby… 

Poppy: Yes

Mina:…at the nursery because you work 10 or 12 hours, could you leave it for 10?

Poppy: So what’s the proposal then? To work six-hour days?

Mina: To have more flexible work schedules for those first years, which actually happens in other countries.

Poppy: That’s true.

Mina: There’s this really nice initial period here that supports your new role, and then suddenly you’re thrown into the ocean and there’s nothing.

Poppy: Yes. 

Mina: There should be and I don’t mean only for women or only for men, whoever chooses a flexible work model for that first phase, let’s say the first three years – you’d know better, you’re the more experienced parent here.

Penelope: My child’s twelve now.

Poppy: I mean, I can’t work from home, I haven’t yet figured out how to send drinks from my house to table number two! 

Mina: Maybe we could use AI to come up with that idea? That’s right.

Penelope: And Business Development on WHEN podcast (Humoristically)!

Poppy: Working from home would be great, at least some days, without the anxiety of asking for it. Because you know, in previous cases, most women – especially salaried women – are anxious about returning to work because they feel different. It sounds a bit strange, doesn’t it? But it’s not something men experience.

Mina: Very nice. (irony?)

Penelope: You’re proving my point.

Mina: Υeah, that doesn’t apply to fathers. For a father, it’s like:  he’s done his “job,” he’s had the baby, and then he can just go right back to his old life. Women, on the other hand – Poppy, let me add – feel anxious because they’re not the same anymore. Even if we want to believe otherwise, you suddenly become a different person. You’ve gone through a whole other process, which takes time both physically and mentally, in my view and based on my own experience. Yes, I am a different person, I am still the person I was before, I’m in a transitional phase, but I will find myself again along the way; it just doesn’t happen that quickly, that’s how I feel.

Penelope: And let me say here, as a more experienced parent, that it is not necessary; the point is not to find me again, because I am not the same person, as you yourself said. I have acquired other skills, I may have acquired other priorities, but returning to my job may not be compulsory work. This is now a double interpretation, meaning that I may like my job, I may want to return to my job, I may want to evolve, do something else, learn more. It’s not just that “oh, now I’m going back,” it’s not like that for everyone, it’s not like that for everyone. However, even if it’s not like that for me, that is, I want to return to work, I have a difference in relation to my male colleagues, it’s not the same.

Poppy: Oh, absolutely. No question about it.

Mina: I was actually talking about this with a friend just yesterday, totally by coincidence, who told me that ” let me tell you something,” – she also works in a large advertising agency for a multinational group,-  “here, men don’t take parental leave, mothers run around doing everything because the child has to go to the doctor, because they have to go to the school party, because, because, because… ” Both parents are entitled to parental leave, but it is women who do all the running around. I don’t know if this is a stereotype, I don’t know how deep the roots of what we are discussing are.

Penelope: Oh, it’s deeply rooted. We’ve actually done research on that exact issue, I mention it in every episode, so I won’t say more here. Just go read it on our website. It’s about how men don’t take the parental leave they’re entitled to and how that affects the unequal distribution of care responsibilities.And since we’ve reached this point, we’ve gone from the ideal to what’s really happening out there, I’ll ask you both the same final question: if you could rewrite one “rule” about care – interpret “rule” however you like – which one would you rewrite, and how?

Poppy: For me, there’s just one rule; I said it at the start of the podcast: equality in everything we do to raise our child.

Penelope: Together. 

Poppy: Together, exactly.

Penelope: Mina? 

Mina: Equal sharing. The starting point is simply that we both see ourselves as parents, you’re a parent, full stop. It shouldn’t need any extra definition. So yes, my rule would have no modifiers. Just equal sharing; of roles, responsibilities, and the way you care for the person you’ve chosen to create and raise together.

Poppy: And look… that applies whether the couple stays together or not.

Penelope: That’s another podcast episode!

Poppy: Oh really? When can I come back?

Penelope: I’ll join too!

Mina: In three years, we said; when Alkis turns three.

Poppy: That’s right. I hope we’re still together.

Mina: Then we’ll be on two podcasts! (laughs)

Penelope: Mina and Poppy, thank you so, so, so much for the conversation and the company. See you in three years!

Poppy: Thank you.

Mina: This felt like therapy today. See you in three years!

Conclusion: What did you think of what we shared today with Poppy and Mina, and what else do you think CAREdiZo could potentially create that would bring us one or more steps closer to equality, both inside and outside of work? We are always here to read and listen to your suggestions, comments, and ideas, so you can follow us on social media, send us an email, leave us a review on Spotify, and, of course, come and meet us at WHEN Hub and let’s continue the discussion so that we can make WHEN and CAREdiZo even better for everyone.