WHEN on Topic: New mom, old mum: Caring for the elderly in our personal and professional lives

Introduction: Welcome to the new season of WHEN On Topic. I’m Stella Kasdagli, and I’m back with you to discuss women’s professional and economic empowerment and equality at work. Sometimes even outside of it. This season of our podcast is dedicated to caregiving responsibilities and their equal distribution, and it comes to you thanks to CAREdiZo. What is “CAREdiZo?” It’s a new project we’re involved in as part of the European Commission’s “CERV” programme, which aims to bridge the gender gap in caring responsibilities by promoting equality practices at home, in micro businesses, and small civil society organizations with up to ten employees. This project promotes family-friendly policies, encourages men to participate in caregiving, and highlights the value of caregiving across society, which is what we have been aspiring to for so long. Its activities include research, co-creation workshops, training programmes, and the development of digital tools, such as an educational game, for example, but also podcasts to fight stereotypes and promote equality. Our partners are based in Cyprus, Lithuania, and Bulgaria and are currently creating their own podcasts, which you might have the chance to explore soon.

Stella: In this episode of When On Topic, we are turning our attention to the issue of care, not so much about children this time, but for the adult members in our families who, at some point and for any reason, may need our care, both practical and beyond: parents, older relatives, people living with illness, and of course, people with disabilities. With us today is a man who recently took on such a role in his own life, and together we’ll talk about whether caregiving carries a gendered dimension, how it affects not only our professional lives but also our personal ones, and how we can effectively support those entering this stage of life – as friends, as relatives, as employers, and as managers. Michalis Bozos is joining us today, a Country Manager at a multinational company working in the field of cybersecurity. I’ll let him tell us himself how he came to be part of today’s episode. Michalis? 

Michalis: Good morning Stella. I found myself in this situation due to my mother’s health conditions. I went through a rather lengthy caregiving process that lasted about two to three years, with the last two years being much more intense than the previous ones. The whole care she needed stretched over for approximately twelve years. Things gradually got worse every passing year, reaching their peak in those final two years. At that point, it truly required much closer attention and a greater commitment of my time to help her manage the challenges she was facing. 

Stella: Tell us a bit about the broader context. Do you have children? Do you have siblings?

Michalis: Yes, I have a sister, one year older than me, and we share the same concerns when it comes to our parent’s health. At the same time, I have two children – a 17 – year – old son and a 12 – year – old daughter—and my partner, with whom I live and share my life. And within all of that, I have a job that is quite demanding. 

Stella: That’s what it sounds like.

Michalis: First of all, having to manage four different countries and the people in each one of them, all together it created a strong mix of demands on my time.

Stella: Michalis, let me take a step back and ask you: when you were growing up, if you think back to your childhood, what were the role models or care models that you had around you? In other words, when you found yourself in this situation, based on what stimuli and what memories you were able to see yourself in the role of caregiver for your parent? 

Michalis: Look, that’s an interesting point, because if I go back to the family issues my parents had to deal with, my father’s father – so my grandfather on that side- had died before my father even knew him, so I have no memory of him. My grandmother, also on my father’s side, passed away when I was ten. I don’t remember much, other than that my father would go to the hospital several times a day, and sometimes my grandmother was at home in very poor condition. 

Stella: That’s also a caregiving memory as well. 

Michalis: Very vague indeed, nothing very concrete. What I recall more from my mother’s side, from her parents, was first of all the experience with my grandfather, who spent four years bedridden with a severe case of Alzheimer’s. It began almost like a joke and ended as a tragedy. As I think is often the case with Alzheimer’s: at first you forget something and everyone laughs, and then, in a very short time, you find yourself confined to a bed, unable to do anything. He was otherwise very strong physically, which kept him alive much longer. That story, of course, was carried far more by my grandmother than by my mother. My grandmother was utterly dedicated—a woman on a mission, as they say—to keeping my grandfather alive for as long as needed, or as long as possible, wanting to have him by her side. After my grandfather died, my grandmother passed away very quickly. Within a year, we barely had time to realize what had happened.

Stella: That mission was clearly very important to her. 

Michalis: Yes. She became ill after a routine heart operation. She never recovered and passed away soon after. It wasn’t really a situation that required long-term care – she went into the hospital once, then again a second time, and then she was gone. It all happened very fast. What I can tell you, though – and it left a mark on me, even if it strays a bit from the subject of caregiving itself – is that she passed away in my arms. As, in the end, so did my mother after the period of intensive care we’ll be talking about.

Stella: I don’t think that strays from the subject at all, because, you know, the moment we die is also a stage of life, and one in which care is very much needed. So I think what you describe is very relevant. I’ll come back later to the distinction you made between your father’s side and your mother’s side – which may reflect gender roles, or it may simply be coincidence. But for now, I’d like to move to the more recent past. How did you experience this extended period of caregiving in relation, first of all, to your professional life – which, as we said, is demanding, and I imagine also rewarding, not something you do just because you have to?

Michalis: I’ll tell you. I believe I was – and still am – fortunate in my work environment, because it gives me the flexibility to manage such situations. Thanks to the multinational nature and structure of the company, I don’t really face obstacles in arranging my own schedule. I set my own program, I manage my own responsibilities. Of course, that also came with a very human response from the people I approached in the company to whom I explained my situation, the possibility that I might be absent from some daily activities, and they showed great concern and were very generous in giving me all the time I needed. I missed out on important things – corporate obligations, business trips, relationships with clients and partners, and many activities. But beyond the way the company itself handled my situation, I also had a team that supports the day-to-day work and I’m proud of this team which was built in such a way that it functions autonomously, without needing me to be present all the time. That gave me the flexibility I needed. 

Stella: Do you think that flexibility was mainly due to company policies and culture, or was it also related to your position? 

Michalis: Both. That is, being a general manager comes with many responsibilities and obligations, but also a great deal of freedom. If, over time, you build your team in a way that trust develops and those freedoms are in place, then those teams can operate completely on their own. I think that’s very important. In my view, any manager should be able to organize their team so it functions independently without them. If there’s a constant need for the director or manager to be present, then something isn’t right – or at least that’s how I see it, given my own mindset about work. So yes, it was both the company’s policies and my position, as well as the structure of the teams in each country, that allowed me the flexibility I really needed.

Stella: Do you feel that other members of your team could have had the same flexibility? And if not, what would you do differently as a manager to ensure that others, without your position, could also benefit from similar support from the company they work for?

Michalis: Everyone can have that flexibility, because we can create a plan that covers each other’s gaps. We try to avoid creating exclusive dependencies.Although we are a small team, – especially in Greece there are, let’s say, twelve people – each person has a specific role to play. On the other hand, a colleague recently found himself in a similar situation. Unfortunately, his father passed away just this past Saturday. He had been absent for two months. Essentially absent, although he did show up occasionally at the office. I believe he took, and is still taking, all the time he needs to recover, which is challenging. Because it’s not just the period of care, but also the time after that, the time you need for yourself afterward. Even during the caregiving period, he had all the freedom he really needed. Though in a slightly different way from mine, of course, because at some point, there was a conversation that went like this: “You know what, you’ve been away for quite a while, you should probably take some proper leave for the time you’ve been away,” which I didn’t do. 

Stella: Yes. Do you feel that your own experience informed how you acted as a manager in this case? 

Michalis:  Definitely. First of all, it gave me both experience and sensitivity. Experience to understand what someone going through such a situation really needs – how sleepless they might be, the worries they carry, trips to the hospital, waiting for calls, doing everything required for the person they’re caring for. And sensitivity for their family – the children, partner, spouse, anyone connected to them. Which, from experience, I understood what needs to be done. Beyond that, the sensitivity that I developed through my own experience, I think, made me a bit more empathetic toward these situations. Even so, I believe that even without this experience, I would have approached it in roughly the same way. It’s a matter of character.

Stella: You mentioned the rest of the family, which was going to be my next question. We talk about balancing caregiving and work, but caregiving occurs in different areas of our lives – our parents, our children, our relationships, and ourselves. How did you experience the tension, the imbalance, and the competing needs among these different areas in your own case?

Michalis: Look, there are two things that come to mind spontaneously. One is the time you spend caring for someone – and that time is inevitably taken from everything else. These include work, which we discussed earlier, but also your family and children, your friendships, and everything else that surrounds us. I think that I became quite antisocial during that period, and I don’t think it could have been any other way. In other words, you don’t have time to do other things. I might not have had time to see my children during the day, or my partner. Relationships start to feel a bit transactional: “Do this,” “Do that,” “I’ll do this,” “You’ll do that.” It’s not beautiful; it’s a bit mechanical. But I felt that I always had someone, my partner, who would support me whatever decision I made about how to spend my time and energy. I don’t have exactly the same expectations from my underage children, but I felt they were very understanding and resilient, realizing that dad was away from home. Dad didn’t sleep at home today, nor tomorrow, nor the day after.

Stella: Not at all.

Michalis: Not at all. And he may be nervous at the moment because he’s suffering from insomnia, or he may be emotionally charged with countless things. In other words, the fact that they might come home from school and see me crying on the balcony, for example, was not easy for them, but they showed considerable resilience. I feel that my partner did the same, choosing her own path. It was a conscious path that she chose herself, maintaining some distance from my drama. Because, at the end of the day, someone had to be more resilient in the situation we were living in. And yes, my family is my father, who remains my father, but my family now is my children and my partner. So that’s where I want to put the most emphasis in my life going forward.

 Stella: Overall, what do you feel this process, with all its challenges and burdens, has given you? What did it teach you, what did you gain, and how did it enrich you?

Michalis: I was enriched, but also got hurt. Many things happened. Look, for me,  after an intensive period of caregiving, there was also loss- which isn’t always the case. That is, someone might go through a period of intense care and then life continues normally. For me, loss came too. That weighs on you alongside the caregiving process. I can’t say I’ve fully processed it – it’s all very recent – but what I felt was that, by taking charge of many things, resolving situations, facing momentary decisions or decisions that needed to be made for someone else’s life, it gave me a sense of strength: that I can function under difficult circumstances and difficult moments. A clear example was last summer.

Stella: These things usually happen in the summer..

Michalis: Usually, yes. All these difficult events happened in the summer because, as I said, after 12 years of medical problems, which had become much more intense in the last 2-3 years, the turning points were in the summer. Even illnesses usually break out at night.  These are awkward moments that you have to manage.  For me, it was summers. One surgery, one metastasis, something new each time. So last summer we found ourselves in the most difficult situation of the whole journey. The summer journey, because then came an even more difficult period when decisions had to be made quickly. Because, as selfish as it may sound, we also have our families and had already planned our summer vacations, as we mentioned before. And somehow all this had to… 

Stella: Let the rest of your family work as well. 

Michalis: For it to work, yes. So, within a very short period of time, all the things that had to be done were done. Surgeries, treatments, finding someone at home for 24-hour care. Which is difficult, right? I mean, anyone who is trying right now to find home care for their loved ones – whether that’s for babysitting or for parent-sitting – I think it’s especially hard. I was lucky in that as well. I found a lady who bonded very much with the family, with my father and mother, and helped a lot. She was really a gem, found by chance, through a simple, random search. So, during a very intense period when everything had to be taken care of, in the end, everything was taken care of. And somehow, I felt like I functioned a bit like a project manager, let’s say, putting aside a lot of the emotional aspects at the moments when things had to get done. But afterward, you can’t really hide those feelings. At some point, they overwhelm you, and you say: well, at least I managed. I went on my vacation, and I took care of my mother too.

Stella: That’s important, in order to be able to manage the things that come up. 

Michalis: Yes, because I think that you also need a bit of time. Everyone who goes through this needs to be able to take their time, to recharge their batteries, to refill their energy so they can carry on. Because when you’re in the red zone for a long time, I think that’s when you can hit a dangerous point: you can collapse yourself.

Stella: I’ll hold onto what you said as the starting point for my next question, which is this: in reality nobody prepares us for this phase of caregiving- we tend to know more about parenthood, but much less about caring for the adult members of our family who will eventually need care. So, what advice would you give to a friend of yours (male in this question), an acquaintance – and I’m intentionally using the masculine here- who comes to you and says: “My parents have started having difficulties,” and you realize he’s entering this stage where greater care on his part will be required. What would you share, both practically and emotionally, perhaps?

Michalis: Emotionally speaking, the cliché that you “have to be strong” does turn out to be true. Once you step onto this path, you start approaching things more like tasks to be managed, as I mentioned earlier. You almost have to see it that way – more practically, even a bit coldly- reminding yourself, “I’m doing this to help,” and setting aside some of the emotional weight so you can function better.

I didn’t ask for psychological support during that period. I tried it afterwards, but ended up rejecting it. That’s actually something I’d strongly encourage anyone in a similar situation to seek out, and I think it was a mistake on my part not to stick with it. Talking things through, getting what’s inside you out, and maybe receiving some guidance can make a big difference.

As a friendly piece of advice, I’d say: keep your mind clear, get as much sleep as you can, and take whatever moments of rest are available. When you have the chance to be calm, be calm. When you have the chance to feel happy, let yourself be happy. Don’t let the process – whether it drags on or ends up being shorter – cast a shadow of gloom over everything.

Stella: In everything. 

Michalis: I believe you need to take everything life brings, because it’s all part of life. Looking after your parents, caring for someone who depends on you – that’s also part of life. On the practical side, though, I think the whole process does require some outside help. I don’t know who has siblings and who doesn’t, but I was fortunate to have my sister, who lives close to my parents and could also help, as much as she was able. So I can’t say I took it all on myself. I didn’t carry that whole weight alone. And my father was there too. Some decisions were made together, and it was a shared effort.

 Stella: If that’s not the case, then you definitely need some other kind of support network. 

Michalis: And even then, we always need to keep in mind something – at least this is how it was for me with my mother: I was her child, and she was my mother. I’m not a nurse, not a caregiver, not a professional in that field – and I wouldn’t want to be either. I have my own professional and personal life. What we had was the mother–child relationship, and it’s good for it to remain that way. The practical aspects of care are best handled by people who are trained for it.

Stella: If that’s afffordable. 

Michalis: Yes, if that’s possible, of course. Whether that means a doctor, a nurse, home care, or something else. There are people who are specialists in this. But of course, another issue comes up: the cost.

Stella: Yes, that’s why I said “if it’s possible.” Because for many people, that’s not necessarily an option.

Michalis: Right. And the cost is high. So another piece of advice I’d give to someone who sees this stage coming is to be a little proactive and start looking into it earlier than strictly necessary. Because once the need is really there, you’ll end up doing what I did. Making rushed decisions and grabbing the first opportunity that comes along, regardless of the cost. In that moment of need, you may even end up paying more.

Stella: That’s important. 

Michalis: Yes, because the longer a situation like this lasts, the more it can weigh heavily on a family and its budget. And it’s not something the state helps with – at least not the Greek state.

Stella: Some states do. 

Michalis: Yes, that’s why I am saying this. The Greek state at least doesn’t provide any support, it doesn’t recognize this need. Or at least, from what I looked into, I didn’t find any such option. Of course, maybe someone listening could say, “No, there is this program you can use, or that policy you can take advantage of.” I didn’t see anything like that. These were expenses I had to shoulder together with my family.

Stella: I wοuld like to pause here, because this brings us to the distinction between formal, professional care and the informal care that happens within families. And that leads me to my final question. It’s not a coincidence that we asked a man to join us today. You’ve mentioned your mother, who cared for her parents; your grandmother, who cared for her husband; and the woman who looked after your own mother when she needed it. We know there is a gendered dimension of care. We know that both formal and informal care are most often carried out by women. That might be starting to shift in recent years, but I’d like to hear from your own experience: how do you see people approaching this responsibility – depending on their gender and other factors – and how does society’s expectations differ for men and women when they find themselves in a caregiving role? From your perspective, or from your sister’s, or even your partner’s if she faced a similar need in her own family, would gender play a role?

Michalis: I’m not entirely sure this is strictly a gender issue. There is definitely a part of it that is gendered, especially when it comes to paid care by professionals. And in those cases, it’s overwhelmingly women who take on the role. I actually think they’re at a disadvantage in some ways. Τhey don’t necessarily have the physical strength or stamina to manage the demands of care. But for some reason, it seems to be seen almost exclusively as women’s work: the woman who looks after the grandfather, the woman who babysits the baby, the woman who provides support. We rarely hear of men taking on those roles. That, I think, is a whole different conversation – one that could fill an entire episode on its own. I can’t say exactly where the roots of it lie. When it comes to childcare, it ties into sensitive issues like the phallic issue, let’s say, and the fear that can arise simply from a man being present with children. I think this is a big issue, something we all carry in the back of our minds. We tend to trust a woman more easily than a man. When it comes to elder care, though, I honestly don’t know why that is. From my own experience – since you mentioned my mother caring for her parents or my grandmother looking after my grandfather – I think it often comes down to whose problem it is in the end. When my grandmother on my father’s side got sick, it was my father who took on most of the caregiving. My mother was focused on us. My memories are a bit blurry, since I was quite young, but I clearly remember my father rushing to hospitals, dealing with everything related to my grandmother’s health.

Stella: Did he have siblings? 

Michalis: Three brothers. 

Stella: So, by necessity.

Michalis: I don’t know if it was out of necessity, but yes, there were three brothers, and my father was the one who took on the care. Later, when my mother’s parents became ill, she was the one who cared for them. I think it comes down to that: whose responsibility it  seems to be. In other words,  I cared for my mother. If my partner’s mother were to fall ill or need support, it would probably be my partner who would step in. So, I don’t know if it’s always as gendered as we think. At least in my circle, and in the cases I’ve seen with friends, I haven’t observed a stark difference based purely on gender. It seems to depend more on whose side of the family the issue belongs to. Because let’s be honest: health problems or care needs in a family aren’t automatically shared problems. They usually fall on the person closest to the one in need. So I’d say it has more to do with that.

Stella: Blood ties definitely play a role, and so do family dynamics. But I’d add a footnote here: a family’s awareness and commitment to gender equality makes a big difference. In many of the examples you gave, women aren’t really given a choice – they simply take on one kind of care or another. For instance, “I won’t care for my husband’s parents, that’s his role, but I’ll still be responsible for the children at the same time.” It’s not that she says, “I’ll focus on my career or my personal life instead.” From what you’ve described, it sounds like in your case too, if your partner had to care for her parents, you would probably take on more responsibility for the children. But in another family, one that’s less conscious about equality, the man might simply continue his job and his daily routine as usual, and the children would end up with a grandmother or a paid carer.

Michalis: Or, in those situations, the woman ends up reaching a point of nervous  or complete breakdown because she’s stretched to the limit.

Stella: Exactly.

Michalis: She’s looking after the person in need of care while she is still doing all the things she was traditionally and conservatively expected to do in the family: cooking, cleaning, and preparing the kids for school. If those tasks fall solely on her shoulders, then yes, I’d say we have a serious problem.

Stella: Michalis, thank you so much for everything you’ve shared.

Michalis: Thank you too. All the best. 

Conclusion: What did you think of what we shared today with Michalis, and what else do you think CAREdiZo could potentially create that would bring us one or more steps closer to equality, both inside and outside of work? We are always here to read and listen to your suggestions, comments, and ideas, so you can follow us on social media, send us an email, leave us a review on Spotify, and, of course, come and meet us at WHEN Hub and let’s continue the discussion so that we can make WHEN and CAREdiZo even better for everyone.