Introduction: Welcome to the new season of WHEN on Topic – I’m Stella Kasdagli and yes, you’re not mistaken, our podcast’s name has changed, as did our organisation’s name! Women On Top became WHEN, but as before it continues to invest in women’s professional and economic empowerment and equality at work – sometimes even outside of it! For example, our current podcast series is dedicated to caregiving responsibilities and their equal allocation, coming to you thanks to CAREdiZO.
What is CAREdiZO? It is a new project we are involved in, under the European Commission’s CERV programme, which aims to bridge the gender gap in caring responsibilities by promoting equality practices at home, in micro-enterprises and small civil society organisations (with up to 10 employees).
The project supports family-friendly policies, encourages men to participate in caregiving and highlights the value of caregiving in the wider society – in other words, what we have been advocating for all along! Its activities include research, co-creation workshops, training programmes and the development of digital tools, such as an educational game and podcasts, aimed at combating stereotypes and promoting equality.
This first podcast episode is dedicated to the project and was created specifically for the purpose of introducing the project and the two organisations running it from Greece: WHEN and Challedu. The rest of our partners come from Cyprus, Lithuania and Bulgaria and are currently developing their own podcasts, which you may have a chance to discover shortly.
Until then, let’s now meet Asimina Brouzou, founder of Challedu, and discuss together how we came about to CAREdiZO and why equal sharing of caring responsibilities is so important but so elusive, still, for most of us!
Stella: Asimina, welcome to WHEN on Topic.
Asimina: Good to be here, Stella.
Stella: Can you tell us a little bit about yourself and Challedu?
Asimina: Of course. Challedu is a non-profit organisation involved in creating educational materials and tools as well as workshops related to education and inclusion. Within these topics we essentially include gender equality for people of various ages, from students to adults. I’m one of the two founding members of Challedu and, at the moment, I’m responsible for organising the team and creating new projects on equality issues, as well as inclusion, and all relevant areas we are now discussing.
Stella: One of these projects brings us here today and we will be discussing your role and our role within the project next. But I’d like to start with a more personal question: How have you managed any challenges that have come up in your life, both professional and personal, and the combination of both, along with any caregiving responsibilities that you may have, as a mother, a daughter and a caregiver?
Asimina: Basically, I think that the challenges are many, on many levels, and they are changing at different ages as well. I mean, before having children, before I became a mother, I was already facing a lot of challenges in the professional field: as a woman actually at the head of Challedu, in creating opportunities for the organisation, in getting the funding so that the programmes could be realised. Then, when the children came into the picture, I think that’s where it became even more challenging… I don’t know if that’s your experience too.
Stella: …you realised then that before was nothing in comparison.
Asimina: Exactly, I got a little bit into the deep right away – I mean, I had twin girls, which was a level, I think, higher than having one child. In essence, it made it quite difficult to, I would say, combine, I guess, work – especially in an organisation like ours, which is small, and every person counts; and I was an important member of the team. So, it was quite a challenging time, achieving a balance between the two. While a certain balance may have been found eventually, I think it’s still not complete – because of the feeling of guilt: whether I should be with my kids more, whether I should be working more in the organisation. It’s a bit like… a chain of things coming all together.
Stella: I completely agree. You also mentioned a key word, that is “small”. And it’s worth noting here that the project that brings us here today, CAREdiZO, focuses on the challenges of working individuals in small organisations and small businesses, but also the challenges of the organisations and small businesses themselves that are called upon to support individuals in these caregiving responsibilities, as well. So, I think that’s a theme that’s going to be with us in the next few episodes. Here, what you’re describing… of course, we all face challenges at work – whether we have children or other caregiving responsibilities, or not. But, indeed, when other people come into our lives or the needs of others, family members, emerge and require our attention –whether on a regular basis or occasionally– then the degree of complexity of all the other things we manage increases exponentially. And let us say here that this is not just about parenting and children. It’s also about our role as caregivers to our parents growing up, to other people in the family… And potentially –because in WHEN we also talk a lot about community– not just the people in our family. It’s also people in our environment who we may want to support, who may have supported us, who may find themselves in a challenging time, and to whom we may want to offer the care that they need.
Asimina: Exactly – that has happened in our organisation. That is, apart from me as an individual, it has happened to other people working in our organisation, Challedu… We have had to take more “personal” measures, I would say, as there are not enough in place within the wider system or by the state, which would allow us to meet our responsibilities. So, in a way, we as an organisation are trying to fill that gap – so that the people we work with every day can feel that we are there, that we are close to them. And it’s important that they too can be close to the people they have under their care.
Stella: I think that’s a common thread that we’ve already witnessed in the preliminary focus groups that we have run as part of CAREdiZO. We may often perceive entrepreneurs or employers as “dry professionals” only interested in profit – in reality, the entrepreneurs and founders of non-profit organisations we have spoken to clearly express the need and desire to support employees in their lives beyond work. For some this may as well be a strategy – wanting to keep the best people happy in their workplaces. In many cases, though, this intention is often based on a solid human perception. What’s frequently missing is not the intention, but the tools and the know-how for employers in practice. I believe that is one of the key objectives of the CAREdiZO project.
Asimina: Yes, I think so too… I think when we designed CAREdiZO, looking both at the statistics that were out there in terms of care and basically non-equality in care issues, as well as at what policies are in place or not in place, we could see a very big gap as far as very small organisations and also companies are concerned. It doesn’t have to do that much with the individual founding member or entrepreneur, I think – in reality, it’s about lack of knowledge of practices, having to look for yourself alone, and being in the midst of the chaos of the many things there are to do and to grow… that’s where a more human approach comes in: “if something is happening now, we’ll deal with it”, but more broadly speaking we don’t have specific policies in mind. So, I think that’s where CAREdiZO will be investing quite a lot – discussing such issues to find new practices and new paths among ourselves. For me, it’s something that I personally think we need: practices shifting from the merely personal level –the “oh, I’m here today taking care”– when tomorrow or the day after tomorrow somebody else is in my position and they won’t know how to manage… We need to go to something a little bit more targeted and systematic.
Stella: Very well said… Definitely, I think it is something that we are also concerned about, as we grow as an organisation. Because something that was working when we were three people doesn’t necessarily work when we are ten. This is what we also recommend to companies that we work with – that there is both an equal treatment of all individuals and promoting male involvement in caring responsibilities. A lot of times, these informal benefits usually go to women, because we stereotype them in our minds as the ones who are going to take on most of the caregiving. Furthermore, when something is not documented nor tested or documented in a systematic way, sometimes bias or personal sympathy may come in. For example: “I think Asimina is a good employee, so now she deserves an extra holiday.” Or: “I think Dimitris hasn’t been performing very well and is now slacking off by saying he wants to take care of his mother, so I won’t grant him the leave.” We need objective criteria and a system, so that we can be confident – and so that individuals feel that they are being treated equally.
Asimina: Certainly, this is very important – the policies and practices that are developed within companies create this sense of fairness, if we can call it that, of equal perception. But I would also like to stress the issue of stereotyping. Because a lot of times, before we designed CAREdiZO, while working –being a mother of twins, one-year-olds– I was basically the full carer (as there was no other option, because leave days are more and the financial support through leave is also greater for the mother too). My husband needed to work, because with two children it is impossible to make ends meet – to just say that he stops to help me or that he takes unpaid leave… But essentially, for me –maybe for you too, you’ll let us know– gender equality being our area of expertise, I feel we hadn’t delved enough into the issues of care and unequal participation in it. A new chapter was being revealed to me: that, indeed, in our homes care issues are not in fact shared. But it was also a matter of stereotyping – my own, our culture’s. So, it’s a cultural issue as well, I would say, beyond the broader politics. I think that is also an area where CAREdiZO can succeed: to actually shift the culture, both in women and men. I think that the “men” aspect is very important; that men put themselves in the position of taking on caregiving – not because women may be asking for it, nagging for help, but instead for them to consider it on their own initiative. There is also talk about the mental burnout in women, which really translates to having to think about all the little things that the children need… the people they care for… taking care of the house – this is what I do, spontaneously, at some point. Because I know it’s going to take me longer to explain it. So, I think it’s good to support women and empower them, but it’s much more important –in some respects, at least – to empower men in regards to this issue: changing stereotypes and taking on their part of responsibility.
Stella: Certainly. A very recent example being the questionnaire that we have been running for working people to share with us how they themselves experience caregiving responsibilities. And we had to “chase down” –figuratively speaking– a lot more male participants to answer the questionnaire. They may not see themselves in this role as a principle or it is possible that they believe they already know what I am going to ask them. Or else, they may think this issue doesn’t concern them or even feel a degree of guilt because there is all this talk about unequal allocation… I don’t know. In any case, I think we need –as a society– to start rewarding care. Reward it as much as we reward power, as much as we reward beauty, as much as we reward professional success. Not just for that, but because, many times, when we talk to employers, they may say, “I do things in my company, I offer equal leave. But parents don’t go for it; caregivers don’t go for it.” Because society is shaped in such a way that it is assumed that the woman will play the bigger part in this. So, we kind of throw the ball at each other.
Asimina: And here I’d like to talk a little bit about the CAREdiZO pun, which comes from the Greek verb “to earn” (“kerdizo”), but also from the verb “to care”. In fact, we must consider that “to care” is a job –sometimes unpaid – that really allows us “to earn” in our lives. That is, there can be no living in today’s world without caring.
Stella: In closing, I would like you to tell me what you think we would like to change, in more practical terms, so that in a few years from now we get to talk about a more equal sharing of care among genders in place… And how you’d think CAREdiZO could contribute to that. With what tools, practices, data possibly?
Asimina: First of all, I think a very important step is to open up the discussion around this issue. I bring my personal experience in once more, because when I saw the percentages, the statistics and so on, I was really stunned – not only by the studies that have already been conducted that I was not aware of, but also in terms of perceptions that both women and men hold about the unequal allocation of care. Therefore, an important chapter is to open up the discussion on these issues, to look at different ways of dealing with and sharing care, because that’s also a stake. In theory, one may think “I deal with the house and the children, and the other person deals with work and outside errands,” but is that equal work? And over time, do some of these outside errands just end, while the work at home remains? Now I’m even talking about an elderly couple, where maybe the woman is still the one who cleans, cooks and does everything needed for the house, while taking care of children or relatives, and the man has already completed his working life. Again, I believe it’s very important to open up the discussion, to look at different models, to explore policies and practices which could probably be transferred to very small organisations, but also to larger ones – I don’t know how many policies actually exist in relation to that aspect. Essentially, we need to change the trajectory, I would say, starting off from CAREdiZO to discover something different.
Stella: Super! And that’s why we too are so excited to be a part of this project. When we started discussing this idea, we were very intrigued by the thought that we could approach social awareness around care issues the way Challedu approaches it – through play, knowledge, awareness and mindset shifting. So, we are really happy to be working with you and the other partners from Cyprus, Lithuania and Bulgaria. We will stay with you for several more podcast episodes on CAREdiZO and keep you informed about all the upcoming data, tools and actions that will come out of the project. Thank you very much, and good luck!
Asimina: Thank you very much for having me!
Closing note: What did you think of everything that we shared with Asimina today? What other actions do you think CAREdiZO could develop to bring us one step closer to equality, in and out of the workplace? We are here to read and listen to your suggestions, comments and ideas: follow us on social media, email us, leave a review on Spotify, come and meet us at the WHEN Hub and let’s keep the conversation going… to make WHEN –and CAREdiZO– even better for the benefit of everyone, women and men.
