Frequently asked questions

Stella: Welcome to a new episode of WHEN on Topic. I’m Stella Kasdagli and I welcome you back to discuss women’s professional and economic empowerment and equality at work – sometimes even outside of it. Our current podcast series is dedicated to caregiving responsibilities and their equal allocation, coming to you –as usual– thanks to CAREdiZO. What is CAREdiZO? It is a European project we at WHEN are involved in, under the European Commission’s CERV programme, which aims to bridge the gender gap in caring responsibilities by promoting equality practices at home, in micro-enterprises and small civil society organisations, that is organisations with up to 10 employees. The project supports family-friendly policies, encourages men to participate in caregiving and, of course, highlights the value of caregiving in the wider society – in other words, what we have been advocating for all along. Its activities include research, co-creation workshops, training programmes and the development of digital tools, such as an educational game and podcasts like this one, aimed at combating stereotypes and promoting equality. The rest of our partners come from Cyprus, Lithuania and Bulgaria and are currently developing their own podcasts, which you may have a chance to discover shortly.

Our topic today is “What happens beyond policies?” In our previous episodes we discussed how important it is to have policies, even in small or very small enterprises and organisations. Today, with the contribution of George Filtsos, Head of Employee Relations and People Advisory at Kaizen, we discuss how culture is shaped beyond these policies and draw on George’s experience to see how the tools used by large companies could be applied in a different way to small businesses and organisations as well. Let’s hear him. 

Stella: George, you bring with you a wealth of experience in HR from large companies. And today I’d like us to explore together how everything you’ve learned regarding the “culture of care” –I’ll use an umbrella term– which is implemented and established within a large company could be interpreted and adapted to a smaller business. And I wanted to start by asking this… Often, especially in smaller businesses, we hear, “We’re a family here; we don’t rely on policies or overly structured frameworks, since we all know each other and we’re nice people, who care about one another”. So, my general question in these cases is this: can we guarantee a culture of care when there are no procedures or policies? 

George: Right, we certainly can’t guarantee it – starting, of course, from the premise that culture always exists and will always exist, regardless of policies, because culture is shaped by the people within an organisation. So, whether intentionally or instinctively, there will be a framework, but it won’t be conscious, and it won’t necessarily be fair or equal. So, there can certainly exist a culture without processes or policies; something that exists there, given that people, on the one hand, are imitative beings and want to see how they should behave, and on the other hand, they want to belong somewhere, so they will observe behaviours and unwritten or unspoken rules and try to apply them to fit in, and thirdly, people operate through reward and punishment. Therefore, whatever is rewarded or punished, that is what we will follow. And all of this, though, does create a certain culture. There may be no policies –that is, there may be no foundation– but a culture will form which will usually continue to favour those it favours right now. Whether it will be fair or unfair depends very much on the leadership; it all becomes very person centered. So yes, there definitely exists a culture, but it’s not conscious; it’s not something built on specific terms…

Stella:  On specific principles or values, possibly.

George: Yes, specific principles. 

Stella: Or maybe the values are there too. Power can be a value or privilege or being flexible towards people, who I know will take an extra step when needed. Or I could be flexible towards a woman going through a transition, as I see her role being that of the basic caregiver, while if a man asks for the same transition for caregiving reasons, I might say “come on, you don’t really need to go change diapers right now”. So, values may exist but they may be different from what we would consciously ask for.

George: And that is exactly why I say that this can lead to the continued creation of inequalities or even equalities, depending on the leadership. Because as long as there doesn’t exist anything to use as guidance, as a de facto standard for how we operate, then the same stereotypes will inevitably continue to be produced, depending on who is leading the said organisation. That’s why policies are useful, even in smaller organisations, as they create a sense of security for people, provided, of course, that these policies are actually put into practice. Because the existence of policies alone doesn’t mean anything; they are a foundation, a starting point, but they are also just words on a piece of paper. Experience is what matters. Even in small companies, in small businesses, it is very important to have a framework, created through such policies and processes.

Stella: You said that policies don’t necessarily translate into culture, and that was my next question. What is the mechanism that allows something I’ve said I’ll do to remain just words and not become action? Why does this usually happen, in your experience, in small or large teams? 

George: We’ve often seen that policies follow a checklist –in the sense that we have to do something, either because there is a directive coming from someplace bigger than us, like the European Union or a group to which we belong within which that’s how companies operate in order to attract talent. It can all start with a checklist the practical implications of which we can’t really grasp. For a policy to become a culture, to become part of the organisation’s life, it must first be understood. We need to know what it’s about, why we’re doing it, what we want to achieve with it, and how it fits into our broader DNA. It cannot be contradictory – that is, we cannot be saying one thing and doing another. Secondly, it must become a lived experience: be interpreted and be put into practice. It is one thing to write it down and understand it, but it is another thing entirely how we apply it. We may say we’re a flexible organisation and prioritize work-life balance, and yet still demand that people respond to emails at 10 or 11 p.m. We may say that we are open to diversity, yet there may be no opposing voices within leadership. All of this stems from policy. And of course, there’s also the question of how consistent we are in these matters and how they translate into what’s important, that is the pivotal moments, the milestones in an employee’s life. In other words, if we have all of this on paper but it doesn’t translate into how we promote people, how we hire people, or how we give a voice in an office, or in a position, then it becomes contradictory again and something that isn’t supported in practice.

Stella: Yes, I am really glad you mentioned these couple of words. That policy needs to be understood and that it also needs to be a lived experience. I was thinking about when we finalised our own policies as an organisation –our internal policies– a few months ago, and how the issue of language really preoccupied us. The fact that we are an organisation that uses a mode of communication based heavily on directness, lively language, care, and equality. Nevertheless, our policies in their original form had this rigid framework that we’re all used to, and we wondered how this language could remain clear and safe –because there is reason behind the way in which it has been formulated– while still connecting with people. And I imagine that even in larger groups or in groups that are more diverse in terms of educational, social, and economic backgrounds –perhaps even ethnic and linguistic ones– one needs to consider other factors too, regarding the accessibility, comprehensibility, and clarity of such policies.

George: 100%. And there’s always the problem that policies are drafted using legal jargon, which obviously isn’t understood by the average worker. And also, in my experience, it usually starts with what other organisations have done rather than what this organisation looks for. It doesn’t start from the bottom up; it starts from the top down. Which isn’t necessarily a bad thing.

Stella:  And from the outside in, too.

George: Right. And there really exist organisations so diverse where we need to translate, if you will, what it is we’re talking about, why it’s important to us, and how we’ll put it into practice. Which usually doesn’t happen, because policies usually do function like a checklist.

Stella: Hmm, yes, that’s important, and I think it also has an impact on people’s understanding of the policies. For example, when we talk about leave… be it paternity leave or caregiving leave, etc. You often walk into an organisation, regardless how big or small it is, and people have no idea what they’re entitled to. And this isn’t necessarily due to non-existent policies, but because they’re written in such a way that no one wants to sit down and read them or look them up or understand them. So, there’s a big gap there.

George: And then there’s the matter of translation we mentioned earlier, which I believe in very much, and it encompasses all those unspoken things. Sometimes they aren’t unspoken; they are spoken and will be spoken, but it has to do with, for example, leave policies. Paternity leave in Greece, for example, has increased slightly, but only in recent years. Its use remains low regardless…

Stella: Hmm, that’s true.

George: Which has nothing to do with whether this policy is written down somewhere; it has to do with a broader professional and, of course, social context that prevents you from making use of it. And that is the reality that a company needs to change, because a company has the responsibility to change what they stand for as an organisation. How are we looking at supporting you providing the best possible service to the organisation? To do that, there’s also the need to have personal balance.

Stella: Certainly. Let me take this example of paternity and parental leave to ask you about the role that companies can play. In a small organisation, the founder might play that role. In a larger organisation, the manager will play that role. And it’s not about how they behave toward George, who comes to ask for paternity leave and they’ll tell him, “Sure, George, take it,” but rather to what extent they, Peter, Christos, or Makis, have taken that paternity leave. That is, have they made use of this or other opportunities, themselves, afforded to them either by their position or by company policy to care for other people? How have you seen this play out – if you’ve seen it happen, seen it matter, or even seen it matter in the opposite way… I mean, what happens when I have an employer or a manager, a female manager who tells me, “You go home, but I’m going to stay here until midnight because the work has to get done – it doesn’t matter that you need to leave”?

George: Exactly. And that ties into what I mentioned earlier about imitation and belonging, and what gets rewarded and what gets punished. If I don’t adopt this –if I can’t see it as my own path within the organisation– I’ll never want to follow it. Now, of course, regarding your question, managers in general, in medium and large companies, are often the main obstacle in making the policy a lived experience, because they are the interpreters. And they are the interpreters, even as people who will experience it as employees too… So, if they haven’t experienced it, they simply won’t convey it. But also, to what extent do they have the knowledge of what the policy is and the tools to be able to implement it? When I say “tools,” I obviously don’t mean systems. I mean how I can grant this permission without venturing the outcome I want the team to achieve. Which has to do with productivity, it has to do with planning and available resources. It’s a broader issue. And if I feel that I can’t do this, that I can’t see it through, obviously I won’t bring it to the table as an option. Therefore, it has to do with the lack of empowerment of these people to be able to support a culture of care. And the smaller the organisation, the harder it is. Because in a large organisation, to be honest, it often balances itself out through who does what. The concept of productivity plays itself out; one person ends up covering for another. In smaller companies, where roles are sometimes less clearly defined due to limited resources, it becomes even more difficult. So, this has to start at the top and come as a solution regarding what you can do to help provide flexibility and a work-life balance for your people. And that’s missing. Because, quite simply, we’re not used to it – let’s be honest. I mean, just thinking about our conversation today, I was thinking a lot about Greece specifically. Because that’s where I live right now. And how different things were when I lived in England. In a multinational company, of course, because even there, I don’t think the average company is terribly flexible. But there was a framework that didn’t allow for exception, and it was so that you could provide your people with what they needed. And there was also a framework for how far you could go. And that’s very important. Because that’s what the processes and policies ensure. What is the limit? So, if I could summarise, I’d say that managers have a pivotal role, but they must first be empowered themselves to play that pivotal role, which isn’t happening.

Stella: Right, I have a few casual thoughts I’d like to bring up here, and maybe you can help me based on your experience with your own tools, so to speak. The reason we are discussing managers, even though we are talking about small businesses, is that given the size of our organisation –twelve people– intermediaries are starting to get involved in the teams, so you run into this obstacle we just discussed, this challenge of how to ensure that the culture you were confident you could instil in your team through direct contact with them continues to trickle down when these intermediary individuals join. So, I see two challenges here. One is that often, people –especially those in smaller teams who take on a managerial role– don’t necessarily have the leadership experience to create that framework or maintain the position they need to hold as intermediaries. They’re very good at their jobs and have earned this promotion. That doesn’t mean they also have the skills needed to maintain the framework you describe. At the same time, people who climb the ranks within an organisation, big or small, also have ambition. That’s why they’ve been able to find a way to rise to the top. Which means that when they’re given the chance to go the extra mile, they’re very likely to take it. And I say this in a very positive way, and I say it while also making a disclaimer for myself, that I, too, try to set this example of care that we were talking about within the team. Given my need to ensure the sustainability and growth of this organisation, when I’m given the chance to go the extra mile, I’ll do it without necessarily worrying at that moment that I might be sending the wrong message. So right now, I sympathize with the person who, for whatever reasons –personal or collective– wants to move this thing forward, to get the work done. And while he says, “Go take care of your sick kid, take time for yourself, go do Pilates,” his own behaviour suggests the opposite. So, I’m saying all this to come back to what you said, to the importance of the framework that won’t even allow me, as a founder, to stray too far from what I require my people to do.

George: You’re absolutely right. If you’ll allow me, I’ll tell you how I think this could work in an ideal organisation.

Stella: Yes, I’d love to hear it.

George: In an ideal… well, in an organisation that actually functions… I don’t believe that everyone within such an organisation has to operate in exactly the same way. Because, as you quite rightly said, one person has ambition X, another has ambition Y, one has issue X at home, another has issue Y, and so on. That’s where the translation I mentioned earlier comes into play. It means that you, as the founder, can work until midnight, but the person below you will work their regular hours, take the leave they’re entitled to, or have a flexible schedule. And yet this won’t be an obstacle to advancement; they won’t be singled out, they won’t be stigmatized – on the contrary, they will be promoted as long as they are good at their job. That’s when the framework works perfectly. We don’t all need to work at the same pace, in the same way, because that, too, goes against flexibility. People work in various ways. I might be productive at different times and in a different way. However, people need to feel secure that what is asked of them is clear –it should be asked in terms of productivity, in terms of output– and how this will be evaluated is also clear. And from there on, let everyone decide how they want to manage it. But not the same for everyone. That is not the appropriate message I believe.

Stella: Yes, and perhaps this kind of inclusion in care, as you said, can take other forms. Because I might work until midnight, for example, but then I may have to stop at lunchtime to pick up my kids from school.

George: Exactly.

Stella: And what we’re trying to do, at least on our end, is make that visible. Say that, you know, “Look, I’ll be gone during this time.” That way you know that I’ll need to go, so that you also have the option to take time off when you need to. I’m putting it in simple terms now.

George: And this is where the social aspect comes in. The social dimension, which I feel we haven’t quite found in Greece yet. You mentioned something really nice: that I can work until the evening, but at noon I want to have a little more freedom. And that’s exactly the approach. We talk about this culture of care as something external that happens to some people, as something that’s an exception. And that’s precisely the opportunity, but also the difficulty, of a small business. This shouldn’t be an exception. It’s a way of life. I mean, statistically, at some point most people will need some form of flexibility for care – regardless of what “care” may mean in this context. When we see this as part of life and not as an exception or as something that just happened to Stella or George, then the reasons don’t have to be so strictly defined. It could be a child who is young and needs care. Or a parent who needs care… There are countless things that fall into the category. It’s part of life, and that’s how it should be integrated into the culture. And when it’s a small company, this can be put into practice much more easily. When it has grown too big, that’s where it gets difficult because so many people are involved. Indeed, every person is different. It becomes a bit more complex. But in small companies, I believe this is a challenge, yet at the same time a huge advantage.

Stella: I’m thinking about what you said regarding how we can view this as something normal. We’re currently at the WHEN Hub, a space designed to bring work and care together. And as many of our listeners know, this space began to take shape as an idea many years ago. My colleague at the time, Evita Kolokouri, when we first started discussing this space, told me that her parents were teachers and would come home from school at lunchtime so they could eat together. And when I started working in companies and realised that if I had children, I would never be with them for lunch on weekdays, that made a huge impression on me. And it was something I hadn’t thought about before, because my mom also worked late, and we didn’t eat lunch together. But I thought about how nice it is to learn from other people’s experiences when it comes to caregiving. And that brings me to the question of what we have to learn from the new people entering the job market, who, I think, bring along this –I won’t say demand, but this need, this expectation– this request more strongly. What can we learn from this, and how optimistic are you that we can learn or not? Because I see a great deal of resistance to viewing this as a new way of working rather than as a bad habit. What have you personally learned from this?

George: This is one of my favourite topics, I should let you know. And it’s one of my favourite topics because – let me explain my reasoning to you. I’m very much in favour of it; I’m a huge fan of the younger generation, and I’m also opposed to the belief that the younger generation is spoiled, doesn’t want to work, wants everything to come easily, and doesn’t want to be pushed. Because looking at the big picture, what I see the younger generation wanting is balance. And that’s very ugly on one hand, but understandable on the other, of course, because we’ve put up so much resistance to it. I say it’s unfortunate because, obviously, wanting balance is a good thing. On the other hand, though, it’s understandable because, let’s face it, generations upon generations grew up in very different ways, especially in Greece. And I understand that deep down there might also be a bit of jealousy – why didn’t we have that? Because I used to work until midnight, while others work an eight-hour day and get the same compensation, which I had to work much harder to earn. But this is progress, and it’s entirely legitimate, and we all stand to benefit from it as well. It’s like we hit two targets with one arrow. So, the new generation brings a need for balance. They’ve realized that a working relationship is a give-and-take and not a one-sided arrangement, like we viewed it in the past. I’d also say the end of the millennials is on the horizon; that’s where I believe the change has started to come from. Young people are evaluating employers, something that never happened before. They can seek certain things; they can demand certain things. And if those things don’t materialise, they can walk away to look for something better. And this is often seen as laziness, but everyone must pursue their own dream, their own way of expressing themselves, and their own career. And all of this is perfectly legitimate. There’s a lot of resistance. There have been some social and professional steps taken in recent years with, in my opinion, somewhat questionable motives. I mean, the motives are more about finding talent than about actually caring for people. But that’s okay; let’s look at the positive side. It’s happening for a reason, and there is a positive impact. Many companies in highly competitive industries also understand that they need to move in this direction. Hence, they’re starting to make changes for talent again. I mean, it’s ultimately for profit, but again, that doesn’t matter. But I don’t know that that’s enough unless more legislation is passed. Because we’re talking about competition, we’re talking about talent, we’re talking about specific companies – primarily tech companies and AI. Fine, but what about the millions of other people who don’t work in those sectors, whose jobs may be at risk due to this technological advancement, and where companies don’t face such a shortage of labour? How are they protected? How do they advocate for themselves? Therefore, we are at a crossroads, but in my opinion, legislative action is needed on many fronts.

Stella: Both legislative initiatives and a proper assessment of needs, because often measures are introduced that, instead of actually helping us provide care, they complicate the situation both for the people we aim to help and for those responsible for implementing these policies. And perhaps it’s also a matter of transition, because, yes, it’s always difficult to switch to a new work management system. So, we often complain about it for that reason, because change is hard for us. But there are also things that, over time, seem to limit flexibility instead…

George: And this also has to do with our failure to see the bigger picture. Let’s take parental leave for instance. It’s not just about how, for example, a woman will have more days of leave. It’s also about how, for example, the father will be able to have the same number of days of leave to provide support. We often follow a logic where, as people, if a hand hurts, we cut it off. Instead of taking a broader view of how we can help the system –the system in a figurative sense– and how we can help a family. Because if the other part of the family isn’t helped, we’ll never be able to achieve the balance we’re aiming for. And it’s this one-sided approach that traps us in this vicious cycle, where, years later, we’re still saying we haven’t gotten there yet. Because we don’t look at it collectively. Companies don’t look at it collectively. I mean, even in large organisations, we’ll always go to the problem and say, “Great, how can we address the issue of women’s leave or women’s return to work?” Brilliant. And we have to do it 100%. It won’t have the same impact unless we also take care of the fathers. We go about, for example, participating in such-and-such Career Fair and sign such-and-such agreement to show our diversity. And at a table of the top 20, top 50, there isn’t a single woman, there isn’t another ethnicity, there isn’t an LGBT person. And all of this just goes back to a never-ending cycle.

Stella: Yes, and I think this also has to do with a certain laziness we all have as human beings and as societies. That, okay, we can’t possibly deal with everyone’s complaints, with everyone’s needs. Why, really? I think we can challenge even harder things than what we already do. I have one last question. Small businesses and small organisations, as we know, rarely have HR infrastructure or people to advise and support them, I’d say – even though, in many cases it would be extremely helpful. If you had the opportunity to spend a month at a small company, what would be the first thing you’d do to foster a culture of care within that company?

George: Two things that are certainly very important are talking with the leadership and understanding what the… where the organisation is headed, first and foremost. Because it exists to achieve something, whether it is a nonprofit or for-profit. How will it go about achieving whatever it wants to achieve, and how do I think it can achieve it? That is, the most essential part of the work itself. And then, what are people’s needs? I would very much like to know. Which, and I say this from my experience in large companies, is not done. We don’t ask. We bring in best practices – what we always call best practices. What does such-and-such company do, what does such-and-such country do, what did they vote for in such-and-such country. We don’t ask what our own workforce wants, which varies greatly from one company to another. In other words, working at a tech company with an average age of, say, 30, versus working at a blue-collar company where the average age might be 50 – these are two different worlds in terms of their needs. We need to bring this to the surface. There is a reason to understand, to learn what people need, so that we can build our policies on that foundation.

Stella: And this diversity you described also has to do with how we will go about assessing needs. I’m thinking right now about a quantitative survey questionnaire I had to fill out yesterday, where I didn’t understand half the questions –why they were asking them– and how I was driven to answer based on what I was thinking in the moment. And I think about the person in the factory, the person in cleaning services – how are they supposed to convey their needs and their lived experience through this sort of questionnaire that we see so often.

George: That’s absolutely right. And here comes another big part of how and why the concept sometimes gets distorted. Not just the culture of care and such actions in general. It’s that it isn’t measured. And when we try to measure it, we measure it with the wrong data. We measure it by asking, “Did we do it? We did. Did we ask for high-level feedback? Yes, we did”. We don’t see the result of that. To what extent do these people become more productive? To what extent is the risk of burnout actually reduced for these people? Because we always talk about all this and always take it for granted that, well, if the organisation doesn’t suit you, you’ll just get up and leave to go next door. But that won’t happen 90% of the time. The person will stay there and keep trying to produce to the point of exhaustion. They’ll keep trying to produce at the expense of their own productivity, with reduced commitment.

Stella: With resentment, too. And a bad relationship within their team or with their employer or whatever.

George: Exactly. And that’s where the question comes in: “Fine, but why should I go through all this when that’s pretty much how all companies in Greece operate?” It has an impact. It might not be the immediate one –such as me leaving tomorrow– but it’s what I offer, which is why you have me here. And of course, we need to understand where we should start. I mean, even now when we are talking about the culture of care, the burden is probably not evenly distributed in the world. It’s not evenly distributed based on gender, nor based on ethnicity. If we bring this to the surface, we’ll keep moving in circles.

Stella:  That’s right. Thank you very much, George. 

George: I thank you. 

Stella: You’ve shared a lot of wisdom today, and we’re going to put it to good use.

George: Thank you so much!

Stella: What did you think of everything that we discussed with George today? What other actions do you think CAREdiZO could develop to bring us one step closer to equality, in and out of the workplace? We are here to read and listen to your suggestions, comments and ideas: follow us on our social media, email us, leave a review on Spotify, come and meet us at the WHEN Hub in Athens, and let’s keep the conversation going… to make WHEN –and CAREdiZO– even better for the benefit of everyone, women and men.

Stella: Welcome to a new episode of WHEN on Topic. I’m Stella Kasdagli, and I’m happy to welcome you to another conversation about women’s professional and financial empowerment and gender equality at work – and sometimes beyond work, too. This season of our podcast is dedicated to caregiving responsibilities and the equal distribution of care, and, as you know, it is brought to you through CAREdiZo. CAREdiZo is a European project in which we participate as WHEN, under the European Commission’s CERV programme. Its goal is to help bridge the gender gap in caregiving responsibilities by promoting equality practices at home, in micro-businesses, and in small civil society organisations, meaning organisations and businesses with up to ten employees. The project supports family-friendly policies, encourages men to participate in caregiving, and highlights the value of care in society more broadly, which is exactly what we’ve been advocating for all this time. Its activities include research, co-creation workshops, training programmes, and the development of digital tools, such as an educational game and podcasts like this one, all aimed at challenging stereotypes and promoting equality.

Our partners are based in Cyprus, Lithuania, and Bulgaria, and as we speak, they’re creating their own podcasts, which you may soon have the chance to discover as well. Today, we’ll be talking about the personal caregiving challenges faced -often constantly- by founders and owners of small businesses and organisations, and how those challenges affect their role as leaders of the teams helping them carry their entrepreneurial vision forward. To explore this topic, we’re joined by Marisa Antonopoulou. Marisa joins us in a dual capacity: today she is an entrepreneur herself, but she also previously served as COO of AFI, Greece’s first microfinance organisation. In that role, she supported aspiring entrepreneurs — both practically and emotionally — through knowledge, guidance, and experience, helping people seeking funding to launch their businesses. Let’s hear more about her journey. 

Stella: Hello Marissa.

Marissa: Hello, Stella.

Stella: Could you tell us a few things about your own path and how you got to where you are today, so we can better understand the perspective you bring to this discussion around the work-life balance challenges entrepreneurs and founders face?

Marissa: Sure. My career didn’t actually begin in the startup world. I took a very different path, starting in a corporate environment at PwC as a financial auditor, that is, somewhere with a lot of structure, numbers, in a very corporate environment.

Stella: And more structured, I imagine, in terms of policies.

Marisa: Absolutely. And although that environment came with certain costs, it also gave me tools and skills that I later carried into much less structured environments in my life. Then I spent ten years helping build Greece’s first microfinance organisation. Beyond supporting and training people trying to start a business for the first time, we were also financing people who had no access to other funding sources.

Stella: What percentage of those people starting businesses would you say had caregiving responsibilities? Not necessarily a traditional family structure, because that can mean many things, but how many of the people you supported at AFI had caregiving responsibilities in their lives?

Marisa: I’d say around 60%. If they weren’t mothers raising children themselves, they were often men supporting ageing parents.

Stella: So you’re making the distinction…

Marisa: Looking at age demographics alone, I’d say that most people over the age of 35 or 40 had some form of caregiving responsibility.

Stella: But you’re also distinguishing between parenthood and caring for others in the sense that women were usually the primary caregivers for children, whereas men were less often taking on that primary caregiving role.

Marisa: Definitely. I think socially that’s still true in Greece. Later on, after leaving AFI, I became an entrepreneur myself. And that’s when I realised how much easier it is to advise people about entrepreneurship from the outside. I thought I understood it before. Of course, an outside perspective can still be incredibly helpful, but it’s much easier to advise someone when you’re not personally carrying the risk yourself. What I realised once I became an entrepreneur was how difficult it is to ask for help. And also how lonely entrepreneurship can feel. There’s this feeling that something is lacking in you if you need to ask someone else for support. It’s not necessarily a rational feeling, but it was something I absolutely didn’t expect to encounter once I crossed over to the other side.

Stella: And does that need for support relate mostly to the operational side of running a business, or also to how entrepreneurship interacts with the rest of your life?

Marisa: Everything. Because you don’t only need help with the business itself – admitting, for example, “I don’t know how to do this, I need to learn it or ask someone else to do it for me.” You also need help with what I call “borrowed time.”

Stella: Tell me more about that phrase, “borrowed time.” I really like it.

Marisa: When you move from being employed somewhere into entrepreneurship, you naturally start feeling like your time is borrowed. When you have a job with fixed hours, you know where you’re supposed to be from 9 to 5. But when you’re an entrepreneur, because theoretically you can work whenever you want, people also assume you’re available whenever they want. So in my mind, and it’s something I’m trying to work through, time always feels borrowed. If I ask someone to watch my child, I find it difficult to say, “No, I can’t at that time because I have work,” because somewhere inside me I believe I could rearrange it if I really wanted to.

Stella: So work feels more like a choice than it would in a salaried job – or at least that’s how it appears from the outside.

Marisa: Exactly. That’s how it appears.

Stella: But does the opposite happen too? Sometimes I feel that even the time I choose not to work feels borrowed from the business itself.

Marisa: Absolutely. Of course.

Stella: Because there’s always something more you could be doing for your business.

Marisa: Exactly. And if you don’t work on your relationship with perfectionism, it can drive you insane. You can never be fully present anywhere. When you’re working, you think about everything else. And when you’re with family or doing something personal, you think about the business — about the thing that won’t move forward unless you personally make it happen.

Stella: We often hear from women who gave so much of themselves in corporate environments. They entered those spaces young, ambitious, eager to grow, and they gained a lot — but they also sacrificed a lot. And at some point they turn toward entrepreneurship hoping for more flexibility, more autonomy over their time and decisions. Do you think entrepreneurship really improves work-life balance? Does it actually make it easier -especially for women- to devote time to caregiving responsibilities or life outside work?

Marisa: Honestly, I think it would be a little ironic to say that becoming an entrepreneur gives you more time. That’s simply not true. At the same time, though, I wouldn’t change it for anything. Leaving the corporate environment was absolutely the right choice for me. You do gain more flexibility over how you organise your time, but not more time itself. Your mind is always working. The difference is that in one scenario you take meetings in a quiet office, and in the other you’re taking them from a playground while holding your child in one arm and your headphones in the other. That’s the difference. You simply use your time differently, and from the outside it may look more flexible. But the sense of responsibility is much heavier when it’s your own business. You carry the emotional and moral weight of it all. You carry your team on your shoulders. The only thing that changes is that you can structure your actual working hours a bit more freely.

Stella: I could picture that perfectly. I’ve taken meetings from the park, from the stands at OAKA, from the car right before or after picking up the kids. Does that create guilt for you too? Because for me it creates double guilt – guilt toward the child in the back seat because I’m talking to a colleague instead of talking to them, but also guilt toward the professional environment because people can hear children in the background while I’m in the park.

Marisa: Constantly. That’s exactly the issue – the guilt that comes with this kind of life. It never really stops. But at the same time, I think every one of us has to work very hard internally not to constantly feel guilty from every direction. I certainly haven’t mastered it yet. If someone else has figured it out, they should tell the rest of us how.

Stella: We should invite them onto the podcast.

Marisa: Exactly.

Stella: How has this experience, the guilt, the balancing act, the transition from employment to entrepreneurship, affected the way you lead your own team today? Has it changed the way you understand your employees’ needs or shape your company culture?

Marisa: It’s made me much more direct and human with my team.

Stella: What do you mean by “direct”?

Marisa: In more traditional professional environments, our personal lives -especially our identities as caregivers- were almost hidden. You were “professional” at work, and your caregiving role existed somewhere else. I’ve tried to break down that wall with my own team. If something caregiving-related comes up, we address it openly and immediately. If your child is sick, there’s no discussion – you leave and we’ll figure it out. We’ll cover for you. I try to integrate the human side into professional life much more consciously now. And honestly, that’s something I wish others had done for me earlier in my own career.

Stella: So you hadn’t really experienced that support yourself from previous managers?

Marisa: Not consistently. I’ve had many managers over the years, and everyone had their own style. Some people understood because they were living through similar realities themselves. Others made me feel like my humanity had to stay hidden in professional settings. And this isn’t only about caregiving. It’s also about empathy in general. In many workplaces, empathy is still treated as weakness. I hope that’s changing now – that understanding and empathy are increasingly being recognised as strengths instead.

Stella: That empathy is becoming destigmatised in leadership.

Marisa: Exactly. That’s the shift.

Stella: Earlier you said, “We’ll deal with it.” But structurally, what does that actually mean? Have you built systems, budgets, or staffing structures into your business that allow you to genuinely respond to emergencies and caregiving needs?

Marisa: The main thing I’ve done -at least in one of my businesses, because I now have three- is to avoid assigning myself fixed hours in the business.

Stella: May they become a hundred.

Marisa: No thank you! In the business where I have eleven employees, I deliberately haven’t given myself a fixed schedule. That way, when there’s a need, I can step in and cover any role. I’ve trained myself to be able to do every position. So the first thing I’ve done is take responsibility for being the first person who can step in when something happens. The second thing is that this specific business is a restaurant, so things are more complicated.

Stella: So it’s fully in-person work. You can’t just close up and say, “We’re remote today.”

Marisa: Exactly. Working from home simply isn’t an option in that environment. So some of the policies and approaches I was trained in just don’t apply there, and I have to think differently.

Stella: I want to pause there because I think many of us instinctively say, “If there’s a problem, I’ll step in and fix it myself.” But as businesses grow, is that sustainable? And what does that mean for our own caregiving responsibilities and our own work-life balance? And I also wonder whether women are more likely to say, “I’ll handle it, you go,” compared to men – although maybe that’s just my own bias.

Marisa: Honestly, I hadn’t thought deeply about the gender dimension until now. But I do think we haven’t been trained to destigmatise delegation. Women often carry a stronger sense of personal responsibility. I see it in teams all the time – very often it’s one of the women who immediately says, “I’ll cover it.” So yes, I do think there’s a difference there.

Stella: But what happens when the team grows and we remain stuck in that mindset of personally covering every emergency? How do you transition into a structure that makes the business -and your own life- sustainable? Especially in a small market like Greece, where it’s not always financially possible to build extra capacity into staffing or budgets?

Marisa: It’s incredibly difficult to say, “I’m going to hire two extra people just in case someone needs leave or there’s an emergency.” But if you can afford to do it, the psychological relief is worth the financial sacrifice. Knowing you don’t always have to be the one stepping in allows you to focus elsewhere. Of course, not everyone has that luxury. There are periods when I’m fortunate enough to have extra people who can help cover things, but that’s not always possible. As a company grows, it becomes a little more realistic. But even then, we have to be intentional about where we invest both money and time. So yes, it’s a trade-off. For me, it’s worth it, but it’s not possible for everyone.

Stella: Looking back now, what would you say differently to founders you supported in the past, especially women with caregiving responsibilities? What do you think you were missing back then?

Marisa: I don’t know if I would change my words exactly. But I think I underestimated how important it is to talk about loneliness and about the fact that no one really tells you “well done” anymore. That’s something I still struggle with.

Stella: That’s such a powerful point.

Marisa: When you work for someone else, you have managers, goals, milestones. When you complete something, someone acknowledges it. Someone says, “Good job.”

Stella: And there’s also someone else to blame when things go wrong.

Marisa: Exactly.

Stella: There’s a kind of parental figure in the workplace, someone to care for you or rebel against.

Marisa: Exactly. And all of that disappears when you become self-employed or start your own business. So I would focus much more on helping people prepare for the loneliness, because entrepreneurship is lonely, caregiving is lonely, and in both cases nobody is constantly telling you that you’re doing well.

Stella: What could that kind of support or community look like?

Marisa: I think simply talking about it matters enormously. When a mother or caregiver says, “My life has changed completely,” people respond with, “Well, you chose to have children.” And when you start a business, people say, “But you control your own time.”

Stella: “You chose this yourself,” basically.

Marisa: Exactly. And yes, both things are true. Nobody forced you into either choice. But you still need support. And we need to normalise saying things like, “I need encouragement,” or “I want to feel recognised.” Or even learning to define recognition differently – maybe my reward is simply the fact that my work supports me financially. But we need to talk about loneliness and recognition much more openly before people step into entrepreneurship. Because honestly, I never used to say these things to people when they came to AFI asking for funding. I would tell them, “You’re strong, you’re empowered, go do it, don’t let anyone tell you that you can’t.” And yes, all of that matters. But I should also have asked: are you ready to be alone in this? Are you ready to have no one else to blame when things go wrong? Are you ready for everyone you hire to eventually look to you for answers — and sometimes blame you when things fall apart? That’s what I would say differently now.

Stella: If entrepreneurs are the caregivers of their businesses, then who takes care of the caregivers? Where have you personally found care and support?

Marisa: For me, definitely my husband, Tasos. And thankfully my parents are still around too. But another important thing I didn’t fully appreciate before is how much it matters to genuinely love what you do. That’s a form of care too. Not everyone has a partner who supports them without making them feel guilty. Not everyone has parents who can step in with childcare when needed. So I’m deeply grateful for all of that. But I also believe that building work you love and creating the kind of environment you yourself would want to exist in is a form of self-care.

Stella: Beautifully said. Thank you so much.

Marisa: Thank you too.

Stella: What did you think about today’s conversation with Marisa? What else do you think CAREdiZo could create to bring us one step closer to equality – both inside and outside the workplace? As always, we’d love to hear your ideas, comments, and suggestions. Follow us on social media if you haven’t already, send us an email, leave us a review on Spotify, come visit us at the WHEN Hub in Athens, and let’s keep this conversation going everywhere we can – so we can make both WHEN and CAREdiZo even better for everyone.

Pinelopi: Welcome to the new season of WHEN on Topic. I’m Pinelopi Theodorakakou and I’m back to discuss with you women’s professional and economic empowerment and equality at work – sometimes even outside of it!  Our current podcast series is dedicated to caregiving responsibilities and their equal allocation, coming to you thanks to CAREdiZO. What is CAREdiZO? It is a new project we are involved in, under the European Commission’s CERV programme, which aims to bridge the gender gap in caring responsibilities by promoting equality practices at home, in micro-enterprises and small civil society organisations (with up to 10 employees). The project supports family-friendly policies, encourages men to participate in caregiving and highlights the value of caregiving in the wider society – in other words, what we have been advocating for all along! Its activities include research, co-creation workshops, training programmes and the development of digital tools, such as an educational game and podcasts, aimed at combating stereotypes and promoting equality. The rest of our partners come from Cyprus, Lithuania and Bulgaria and are currently developing their own podcasts, which you may have a chance to discover shortly.

In our episode today, we converse with Anestis Bozoglanian, Co-founder of “Πρώτα το Παιδί – Children First”, a small organisation that shows in practice how care can be an everyday choice and not just a nice idea in theory. Together, we explore how a flexible, personalised hybrid work model and the sharing of responsibilities in times of need create a work environment based on trust, cooperation, and respect for people’s real needs.

Pinelopi: Welcome, Anestis. 

Anestis: Happy to be with you, Pinelopi. Thank you very much for inviting me.

Pinelopi: Thank you for joining us. Would you like to start by telling us a little about the organisation? What does “Children First” do?

Anestis: Of course. We founded “Children First” with the aim of empowering children living below or at the poverty line in Greece, and their families, through a holistic program based on synchronised interventions in three areas that we consider to be the most important for a child’s development. That is, nutrition, education, and medical care. So, what we do is create a program for each child, providing food that the family cannot afford, covering the costs of certain extracurricular educational activities such as sports, foreign language lessons, digital education, etc., so that the child can develop skills and socialise, and also covering the costs of preventive paediatric and dental care, among other things. In other words, the child is regularly monitored by a paediatrician and a dentist. At the same time, most of the families we support are single-parent families. They consist of the mother alone with the child or the children. At the moment, we are supporting 20 families in Attica.

Pinelopi: Well-done! How many people are involved in all these great things, Anestis? How small is the organisation?

Anestis: There are four of us. We started out as three and have been four for about a year and a half now. We are growing gradually, slowly and steadily. The goal is, of course, to distribute the tasks, the work we have to do, the actions, and the activities in the best possible way. And gradually, other people will be added along the way. From time to time, we are supported by volunteers, of course.

Pinelopi: We hope the same for you, and we know it will happen. We are here in this episode of our podcast series to take a deep dive into a policy that focuses on care – or rather, two policies, actually; we’ll talk about two policies. So, a deep dive into two policies that you implement, for you to tell us where they came from, how they work, what has been difficult for you, and discuss other questions too that will come up along the way. So, we’ve already taken a little time here with Anestis and discussed the policies implemented within this small group of four people carrying a huge task, all the same, as he himself described it to us. So, I have come to two conclusions that I think I’d be interested in learning more about – also for the people who are listening to us and who may have them in mind – and that is where I’d like to ultimately culminate: that is, what WHEN has been advocating for so long and what CAREdiZo has been promoting for so long: we want to have good practices, we want to have policies that focus on care, but we are a small company, a small organisation, and, as such, should this be our priority? And why should we do that, why should we devote time and resources to that? So, that’s where our discussion will take us. But I wanted to start with something you shared with me, which is that you operate based on a hybrid model of flexible working hours, which is personalised. Can you explain a little bit what that means in practice? Both in theory and in practice.

Anestis: Great. So, in theory, starting by taking a step back, we decided together from the outset that we want the people who work in the organisation, starting from the three of us who founded the organisation, to feel good about working for it every day and not regret getting involved in this process. So, we wanted to be productive and effective in relation to our work. And at the same time, we wanted to feel good about being part of it. Therefore, we use a hybrid model, which is not horizontal. That is, each person can work some days from our office at WHEN Hub or from home, depending on their other daily needs. So, each up to each person, for example, whether they may want to come to the office one day and work from home four days, or work from the office four days and from home one day, depending on their other needs. For instance, one colleague has a baby at home, another has a child. And, along with all that, there are some additional educational and other needs that someone may have. One colleague is doing a PhD and needs to go to the university for that. So, everyone adapts their schedule based on their personal needs and the needs of their job. The same applies to working hours. Of course, we have a standard work schedule that we keep more or less, but we don’t assume that everyone has to work from 9 to 5 or 10 to 6 every day. It is adjusted according to personal and work needs.

Pinelopi: So, it started with the three of you from the team that founded the organisation, and now, as I understand it, this also applies to the person who has joined the team as an employee. Is that right?

Anestis: That’s right.

Pinelopi: And is this something that is documented as policy, or is it something that you have shared informally among yourselves and also shared with this person?

Anestis: So far, it has been informal. It is not documented as a policy. It is an agreement we have made between ourselves and which we follow. Of course, as the organisation grows, along with the job profile of each employee and the colleague who has been hired, it will certainly become something more structured and more “formal”.

Pinelopi: We’ll be getting to that. I’ll put an asterisk on it for now. I’m making a mental note, because it’s interesting to see how these informal decisions, which are just as important and useful, change. And how we can, not exactly, transfer them but how they can evolve along with the evolution of the team. So, I’m keeping that as a future note. How do you imagine this policy –this informal policy– will evolve over time, as the organisation evolves? But let’s come back to today. So, it all stems from your own needs. Hence, I understand it as a need that has arisen from a value that is not being constrained by a formal schedule. Do I understand that correctly?

Anestis: Quite right. We want the people in the organisation to feel good while “serving a purpose”. To actively take part in it. To feel that they are growing and evolving within it. And that at the same time, the rest of their lives are not left behind because of it. Their involvement in “Children First” should be part of their evolution and development and not something that holds them back.

Pinelopi: That sounds very nice. How does it work in practice? Because I’m myself a process person, as I say in every episode. I wonder how this works… So, on Friday for example, we make the schedule for the following week? Or don’t we make any schedule? Do we make the schedule for the month? Do we know more or less what Anestis’ needs will be, what Pinelopi’s needs will be? How does it work, actually?

Anestis: Great. So, we start one step ahead, with the current needs of the work first. We have a plan and a strategic plan for the year and our weekly, monthly, and daily plan; that way everyone knows, based on their job profile, what they have to do during the week, for example. Then, ideally, we’ll have a staff meeting, either in person, hybrid, or online during the week, where we’ll discuss current issues and priorities. But everyone knows what they have to do. So, typically, we work roughly within the limits of working hours. But we keep each other informed that, for example, “today I will need to go and I’ll cover this later”. Or they know that tomorrow they have to deliver that specific task and they will adjust their working hours accordingly, based on everything else too. It’s not easy. It’s not an easy equation.

Pinelopi: It doesn’t sound easy. It sounds very nice. But it’s not easy. If you could see me here in the podcast studio at WHEN Hub, you’d see my eyes widening in surprise a little. As I’m trying to imagine it with four people, or with three people, or five people, and I’m having a hard time. I guess it must be a challenge. It seems a bit like a chess game, a puzzle, a brain teaser, all of those things together…

Anestis: Well, you’re absolutely right. It starts with something you mentioned at the beginning. We build our relationship on trust. So that’s the first step when someone joins the organisation, and we want that to remain true indefinitely. So, we trust each other. We understand that there are times when deadlines are not so formal and are a little more informal, or things that we have set as a priority to be done by a certain point will need to be pushed back a little because something else will come up. Even though it can sometimes delay our development or some things we want to do, that is a risk we take because we don’t want to forget that above all we want to be a healthy team that works together, within which we trust each other, and move forward together. In other words, when something gets stuck, it gets stuck for everyone, and it’s not the fault of one person or another.

Pinelopi: It’s a collective responsibility, in other words.

Anestis: We all share the load. It’s not easy because sometimes it can create tension and even frustration when things get delayed, but precisely because we are a small team, we need to be flexible, since there are things that will come up. For instance, if I suddenly get sick. We have a solution to that, because we have backups for everything. For everything we do, there is always someone else who acts as backup and knows that specific part.

Pinelopi: We will come back to this, because it is another policy that you are implementing, which is very valuable and which could work very effectively in both small and medium-sized enterprises and large companies. I mean, I really liked it when we discussed it, going a little beyond the purpose of this episode… That is, this flexibility, which okay, we don’t have it written down. But we know about it more or less. So, in reality, it is based on responsibilities and not on time or working hours. It is based on results and deliverables, we could say, roughly speaking in our language. However, you mentioned a key word that I think we have discussed a lot in this series, and that is the word “trust”. And I’m thinking… Okay, it’s the three of you, you have created this team. You are the people who share the same vision. Maybe not in the same way. Maybe the organisation means different things to each of the three founding members. But, in any case, you started together from a common starting point. And then another person comes along. And gradually, a second person comes along, and a third person, and the volunteer team too, we could add. How is this trust built, then, or is it a given that we trust each other? Which is fine, but for the person joining the organisation, how do they know that you will trust them, and they can trust you too?

Anestis: Well, in order to maintain a balance, first of all we make sure that there is a good, agreeable setting in which we discuss all the problems and difficulties, but that this setting and the team are professional and operate according to certain standards. This is made clear from the outset, when they undergo training in their job and in the tasks that they will be performing. I’d say we start out on good intentions. This does not mean that trust is a given. Trust develops and evolves along with the team. However, we show everyone who joins that there is always room for such a development. They can bring their whole personality to the team, contribute ideas and opinions, and speak openly with us when something is troubling them. Therefore, it’s something we put on the table from the start, and it’s something that is built and redefined along the way. But the same applies to everyone.

Pinelopi: Have you encountered resistance to the way you work from other people, from external collaborators? I guess, curiosity for sure, admiration for sure, but resistance with, you know, not in a negative sense, I mean, not just resistance in terms of questioning like “I don’t understand it”, but also in the sense of, for example, “Do I know when I can find you?”, or “Do I know that you or your employee or whoever will answer my phone call or email?” Have you ever encountered this?

Anestis: We haven’t encountered it because…

Pinelopi: Because they don’t know about it…

Anestis: Generally, we are consistent.  That is, there is no way they won’t find us, or we won’t get back to them. Or if we are away for a day, either someone else will cover for us or we will let them know, and if we need to reach out, our colleague will take care of it. So, there isn’t such a case, except maybe for some delay of a few hours, that may occur.

Pinelopi: Which happens in all lines of work.

Anestis: We haven’t had any particular problems with that so far. I think it’s manageable.

Pinelopi: I’m deliberately focusing on the difficulties, because I think we’ve encountered this in our podcast series many times: That we may be talking about how well we’re doing and how good we are, and I think we may tend to do that, in general. I certainly do for once. I tend to focus on the positive. But then, listening to the episode, I think I should have dug a little deeper. Why is that, and how does it work and how does it not work? So, I wanted to stay with that for a moment. If you have an experience to share with us, an example of a case, that didn’t work well or went wrong. That’s my first question. And of course, what did you do after that? And the second question is whether you ask each other for feedback. That is, asking what works for you now and what doesn’t work – and what you need. Or with regard to the person who has joined the organisation, and possibly this is the third stage. How do you think it will work afterwards? But we’ll circle back to that point later on.

Anestis: We have examples for both of the points you mentioned. Regarding the first one, as I stressed earlier on it’s a difficult equation. Because, as we discussed, we are human beings and many unexpected things happen. Let’s say I have to deliver something by a deadline and suddenly I get sick or my child gets sick and I have to do something, leave something and have someone else take over. And the other person may have their own deadline these days. With Christmas approaching, we now have a lot on our plate, for example. So, in order to take this on, they will take on an extra burden without necessarily having the time. So, both tasks may have to go back a bit. This may cause us tension, distress, or may even create practical problems in terms of results. But it is something we have decided to sacrifice, because we need to find a balance by being okay with it. We already have to deal with many difficulties, because the conditions in Greece are not always friendly to civil society organisations and they certainly don’t make things easy on them.

Pinelopi: There is mistrust.

Anestis: There is mistrust, and there is not the same structure in place like in other countries, where civil society is supported in various ways and through various means, which facilitates its daily work. There are many such examples where something has had to be put on hold, and this sometimes causes tension and frustration. But then, we discussed it and we all took a step back, after taking a deep breath and saying, OK, it happened, but it was necessary. It happened, it will happen again, and we need to be ready for it.

Pinelopi: I can narrow it down to four components. Trust, consistency, risk, and deep breathing, I’d say. But I’m going to make it a little more difficult and ask a question. Okay, we are talking about an emergency, and we’ll deal with it, when necessary, with how responsibilities are divided in such a case. But if you come one day and say– If, for instance, we’re a team, and you say: “Pinelopi, I am doing a PhD. So, team, you should know that on Tuesdays and Thursdays, I’ll be shutting down my computer at two”, for example. And I’ll say to you: “Anestis, that’s great, congratulations, well done. Have a great career. But I have my own PhD, too. And I also have to close on Tuesdays and Thursdays. At one or two.” You know, now this is an extreme example, but what I mean is, when there is a conflict of needs or coverage of needs, how do you manage it? Or how do you think you can manage it in the future, even if it hasn’t happened yet? Apart from emergencies, that is. Emergencies are different.

Anestis: First of all, this happens all the time, as we are a very small team, and everything that each of us brings from outside work inevitably conflicts with the things we have to do at work. The key is that it doesn’t start with an affirmation. It starts with a question.

Pinelopi: Oh, that’s nice.

Anestis: [It will start with:] “I have this. Tuesday, Thursday, 10 to 1, I’ll be away.” or “So, guys, I want to do a PhD. It’s important to me.” So, we start there. We can see how we could incorporate it into our daily routine to make it happen. That’s what happened with my colleague in Athens. We sat down as a team, we saw the tasks, we said “Let’s try this. Let’s see how it works for a while.” If it doesn’t work, we’ll discuss it again and maybe try these two alternatives. But we’re starting from the premise that we’re discussing it to see how it can be done, not how it can’t be done.

Pinelopi: Wow, what you’re saying is really important. In my example I’m presenting you with a fait accompli. I’ve already applied for a PhD, a master’s degree, whatever it may be. We have to find a way to make it happen. But what you’re saying is the fifth component of what we’re discussing today. That we don’t start with what I’ve already planned to happen. But what I want to happen and how the team can make it happen. Precisely so that this conflict of interest that exists everywhere does not arise. But in small teams it may be unworkable. Isn’t it so?

Anestis: That’s true, and it brings us back to trust, which we said is something that is redefined and built on. And trust will also be built if there is mutual respect. It is very important to share my needs and work with my colleagues to find ways to integrate them into the team’s daily routine. We all have such needs. Whether it is human care or a personal need, educational needs or other needs. It is important to understand each other’s perspective and to try together to integrate them into our daily lives.

Pinelopi: It’s not just the question, then, which is the fifth component, but there is also a sixth, which we circle back to in my opinion –and that’s what’s magical about it–, that is the policies. Whether they are written down somewhere or not. We have decided that we will apply them seriously and consistently. Consistency does not mean that we have decided something as a team and that’s it, it’s done. [It’s not like] “Guys, it’s settled, bye, it’s over.” Rather, it’s something that we come back to, because it may work for you who have requested it, but not work for the rest of the team. Which, in turn, does not mean that you will give up your doctorate, but we will have to try something else.

Anestis: Right.

Pinelopi: Or it may not work for you either. For example, I may have asked to leave early, so I can go to class and study, but in the end, that may not suit me and something else does.

Anestis: In my opinion, policies are a roadmap, but the process is dynamic. And we mustn’t forget that the purpose of policies is to make our work easier, not more difficult. Whether we have written them down or are gradually creating policies that we are gradually writing down, we must not forget that they are not just a piece of paper or something in a file that we have to follow even if it is not functional. The purpose is to help us be more effective in our work and, at the same time, be happy with what we do.

Pinelopi: And now let’s go to the cases of emergency. A second thing we discussed, and I think it reflects as I listen to you talk now and, more generally, the culture of your team that you have described to us and the way you support each other. But when I heard it, my eyes widened, because I think it seems very difficult to implement. What kind of policy are we talking about now –you can explain it better than me, probably, in terms of practice, that is– if something unexpected happens to me, it doesn’t matter what. Or maybe it does matter, you will tell us. It could be an urgent need to care for a dependent person. And there is a backup system, I understand, where I let something fall because I have to give my attention elsewhere. But is there a person who catches it before it breaks or does it break a little anyway?

Anestis: It could be both.

Pinelopi: I see. Do tell us. It might not break at all; it might break a little.

Anestis: It may not break at all; it may break a little. Look, as a small team, our organisational chart is not yet optimal and most functional. What we have done is that for each category of actions, tasks, call it what you will, there is someone who is responsible, and there is always a second person who knows how to do that part and is the “backup”. There is also a third person, who will help if the other two are unable to do so. Or the other two may need help and a third person will help. This does not mean that it is set in stone and that it must be done that way. It will be done based on priorities. That is, if it is a task that needs to be done once a month and it happens to be the period when we should do an update, let’s say, a renewal, and the colleague is not available during that period, and neither is the second one, but it is not a priority at the moment, it can be done a little later. If we have a deadline, and something happens to the first or second person, the next person will come in.

Pinelopi: So, the next person…

Anestis: The back up person or we rush in as a team. And that’s why it’s important that we talk openly every day. Whether we talk in person or on the phone, communicate online or through Slack for messaging.

Pinelopi: Of course, we love Slack.

Anestis: We exchange messages. But I want to say that we find solutions dynamically. The team steps in, someone can do that. Or if they can’t, the backup steps in. Or if it’s not a priority, it will be done later.

Pinelopi: Anestis, is this how you built the team, or is it something you thought of along the way and piloted at some point and saw that it worked? Or did it come about organically, because, for instance, you couldn’t be somewhere, so I had to take over something? And you thought, “That’s great, let’s try it.” Did you just decide from the beginning that it would be like that?

Anestis: We didn’t decide that from the outset. It came about along the way for practical reasons. We started out as three co-founders, equal in every respect. And either because we didn’t want to boss each other around, or because we shared the needs and everything that needed to be done, all three of us were involved in everything. This, apart from inevitably leading to burnout at some point…

Pinelopi: It’s a bad practice.

Anestis: It’s just not practical for everyone to be involved in everything. We decided that it wasn’t necessary for more than two people to be involved in everything we do. We can build around each person’s skills and the parts they want to work on. Because the three of us didn’t just say, “Okay, you have to take this, and you have to take that.” We said we’d be starting with these ten things. “– Ideally, which ones would you like to work on? – This and that.” “Ideally, I’d like to work on this and that.” And we divided them up. Of course, even today, we don’t always manage to do that. But it’s our effort to be team players. And in general, perhaps it is our need, as we may sometimes feel insecure. Sometimes, the three of us, or even the four of us, may get involved. But ideally, we try not to involve more than two people. Except for some big things, where we have to plan so that everyone has a role.

Pinelopi: Okay.

Anestis: All four of us can’t have a role in each one action.

Pinelopi: I said before that it’s a bad practice. But the truth is… – a big parenthesis in relation to the small organisations that the project CAREdiZo deals with. That is, the main audience it targets is small civil society organisations and small businesses. From one to ten people. That’s exactly where we are, the two of us. But I would say that, especially in small groups, it is necessary to start off this way, in order to learn, whether you are the one starting the organisation or not. It is necessary to go through all the stages, so that you know what you want to become when you grow within the organisation and what you want to become when the organisation itself grows – and also so that you know what you are talking about. In other words, the fact that there are two people for each task at a minimum came about organically from the way you initially set up the team. How do you imagine that these two practices can work as the team grows? In other words, how do you envision this flexibility in the schedule and your effort to meet the needs that exist outside of what we call the world of work, so to speak, but also the way you have set up the backup, which is very useful in emergencies. How do you envision this working when there are seven of you? Which I wish for you.

Anestis: Thank you very much; we hope and wish for that too. Certainly, when we reach that level, the organisational chart will need to become more “normal”.

Pinelopi: More formal, we could say.

Anestis: More formal, but also informal in parts. That is, at the moment we have a unique organisational chart in which we are essentially three co-founders. It’s as if we are three managers and we have one employee, a female employee in this case. When others are added, the tasks that each person works on will be divided a little better. This will apply to the three of us, our two colleagues, and the rest. So, because the workload will increase, I think it will be better for everyone to be clearer about what they have to do and not get lost in the details, but without losing the culture of back-up, of being there for the team. That’s what it means to integrate someone into the culture. It’s also our job in our daily lives. It’s an attitude we follow. In other words, this won’t happen by imposing it or simply because a policy says so. It will happen because you will inspire the person who joins the team. You will inspire them, and you understand this aspect. So, it will certainly need to be a little more formal and a little more structured, but without losing sight of some of the basic principles we have established around it. And we can’t forget, of course, that personal needs cannot be left out of the picture. They must be maintained for the people who join next.

Pinelopi: How can you maintain that?

Anestis: You can maintain that by recording more things, so that they are clearer, especially in a larger team, when there may be ten of us and there won’t be direct communication and contact in the same way that the two or three of us have now.

Pinelopi: Right.

Anestis: Nevertheless, again, it will also be through ongoing discussions through training, through a more structured job profile and description, what each person has to do, but also the possibilities and opportunities we offer. In other words, it should be a little clearer why you have this flexibility in your schedule within this margin. You have this opportunity to do something else. But we need to discuss it. So, it definitely needs to be recorded, it definitely needs to be more structured to some extent, and it needs to be clearer at the beginning because there won’t be this kind of daily communication between everyone.

Pinelopi: That’s true. That happens. And that, I think, brings me to one of my last questions, which is what happens when, or what do you think might happen when, there is a larger group of 6-7 people. I wanted us to focus on that a little bit. As a member of your team, I may ask for things, because for instance I’m doing my PhD, and then my child got sick and then, whatever reason, I ask for something else and something else and something else. Otherwise, I’m good with my deliverables. I’m on schedule. In any case, there haven’t been any serious consequences. And there’s another member of the team who may not be as dynamic, so to speak. They may not have yet gained that sense of trust and psychological security: “The team tells me that they are here for me, but maybe I am not there yet”, or I can’t find the courage. And ultimately –as we’ve seen it happen– this may lead to, you know, not exactly frustration, but a sense of injustice. Have you ever thought about how you and we could manage that?

Anestis: That brings us back a bit. We’ve discussed that we have a more relaxed structure, but that doesn’t mean that we don’t have a hierarchy or management. And that’s where good management comes in. In other words, we, as managers or whoever will be filling in in the future, must not forget that we need to be close to our team, to discuss, to talk, to see the needs, not only the needs of the work, but also the needs of the people. And this brings us back to culture. We will need to do those two things. And I understand your point completely – we need to do it, regardless of people being more or less expressive, comfortable, or more reserved, people finding it difficult to say, you know, “I’ve reached my limit, I can’t take any more”.

Pinelopi: Yes, exactly.

Anestis: They may understand the colleague’s need, but maybe they can’t do it. So, we’d need to go out to them and not wait for them to come to us. It’s part of our job to remember that we don’t just have to deliver activities and take action, we also have to talk to each other and discuss things on an individual level. Sometimes, we may need to bring out things that one may be unable to share, or may not want to share, because they may not feel comfortable enough. And of course, not feeling comfortable will be another topic of discussion within the team, why someone may not feel comfortable enough to express themselves.

Pinelopi:  Therefore, this is something that management needs to master. I really like what you’re saying; that it all starts with keeping our ears and eyes open, so we can notice something that may not have been said, but may be there, nonetheless. And if we notice it as managers, as leaders, we should ask the question, no matter how small our teams are. Are you okay, what do you need, how are you, do you want us to change something? And if they ask us –if I’ve understood this right– we may be able to give it to them, or maybe not. I think it’s important in this discussion to also include that we may not be able to do what is being asked. What do we do then?

Anestis: We will look for alternatives. We will look for the best possible way to get as close as possible to what people need. It is not a given that everything can be done for everyone. It is simply a given that we want there to be equality. The important thing is that they feel that we have listened to their needs.

Pinelopi: That’s really important.

Anestis: That we’ve put everything on the table and tried to find the closest possible solution. That doesn’t mean that everything will be possible, but it certainly doesn’t mean that nothing can be done either. And also, we as managers are not perfect. It’s a dynamic process and we are learning, improving, and our goal must be to improve. In our daily work especially, when we have a lot going on at the same time, we may forget that. We were discussing this with our colleagues recently, for example, with the colleague we hired. It had been a while since we had a meeting to discuss how her work was going, whether she felt comfortable, whether there was anything that was difficult for her. Even regarding her hybrid role, as we have structured it, because she is doing her PhD – does this make it easier for her, as she has to cover some work and she spends some hours on her PhD. Is it working, is it not? That is, what’s working and what not. So, I think the first thing is that they feel or will feel comfortable, that they can express themselves and that they will be heard in terms of discussion and finding an alternative. I don’t know if it will be enough, but I think that it will be important.

Pinelopi: It would be a very simple but important step, in my opinion. So, and this is my last question, if someone is listening to us right now and has a small organisation, with three or four people, and is thinking about it while listening to us –on the subway or wherever they are–: “Okay, Anestis makes a good point; we can probably implement some of these things”. Where would you advise this person to start from? Could you suggest one or a few things?

Anestis: Well, I think [they can start with] listening to the needs of the team. That is, understanding what each person’s specific needs are. Essentially, what we said at the beginning, that we want to combine the needs of the job with the personal needs of each individual. That’s why I said it is hybrid but not horizontal, in a way. In other words, you have five things to do in this area, but at the same time you have three other things to do in your life. How can we find a balance between them? We won’t always find it, of course.

Pinelopi: And that’s important to highlight too.

Anestis: The important thing is to put it down and know that you have this need and see how we can build around it. Unless the team discusses it and there’s open communication, we won’t reach any solution. A lot of times, we wouldn’t even know what the problem is.

Pinelopi: That’s also true.

Anestis: So, the first thing, I’d say, is to talk within our teams.

Pinelopi: Communication.

Anestis: Communication and open communication. Because it doesn’t necessarily mean that if we just have a policy and the other person knows that work will be 9-5, they will be able, without communication, to fit these pieces into their daily work routine – and they will certainly not be happy. For us, this is very important.

Pinelopi: Open communication in practice, then, and in everyday life. Anestis, thank you very, very much.

Anestis: Pinelopi, I and we thank you too, and congratulations on CAREdiZo. I think it will help many organisations and businesses with good practices, ideas, and understanding.

Pinelopi: That is our hope as well. All the best, thank you very much.

Anestis: Thank you too.

Pinelopi: What did you think of everything that we discussed with Anestis today? What other actions do you think CAREdiZO could develop to bring us one step closer to equality, in and out of the workplace? We are here to read and listen to your suggestions, comments and ideas: follow us on our social media, email us, leave a review on Spotify, come and meet us at the WHEN Hub, and let’s keep the conversation going… to make WHEN –and CAREdiZO– even better for the benefit of everyone, women and men.

Welcome to another episode of WHEN on Topic. I’m Stella Kasdagli, and as you may remember, this season of our podcast is dedicated to care responsibilities and their equal distribution. And of course, it comes to you thanks to CAREdiZO. What is CAREdiZO? It is a new project we are participating in under the European Commission’s CERV program, which aims to bridge the gender gap in care responsibilities by promoting equality practices at home, in very small businesses, and in small civil society organizations, with up to 10–11 employees. The project supports family-friendly policies, encourages men to participate in care work, and highlights the value of care in society -exactly what we ourselves have been advocating for all these years. Its activities include research, co-creation workshops, training programs, and the development of digital tools such as an educational game and podcasts, aimed at combating stereotypes and promoting equality. Our other partners come from Cyprus, Lithuania, and Bulgaria, and they are currently creating their own podcasts, which you may have the opportunity to discover in the near future. In today’s episode of our podcast, we are joined by a very dear guest, Anastasia Chalkidou, who is co-founder and CFO of Quantum Bits, a company you will be hearing much more about very soon. I will only say that she also supports many other small businesses and organizations in standing on their feet, growing, and becoming financially and technologically sustainable. That is why we invited Anastasia here today: to talk with her about what the journey looks like for a very small business or organization when it begins trying to formalize what it would like to offer its employees in order to support work–life balance and help them manage care responsibilities outside of work. How can this be done effectively, without dedicating excessive resources, without burdening either the organization or employees with unnecessary bureaucracy, and without creating a rigid system, something we usually associate with very large companies and that, as small business owners, we sometimes prefer to avoid? How can we move away from relying only on climate and culture and move toward policies and procedures that ensure equal treatment and an equal distribution of care responsibilities for everyone?
Let’s listen to Anastasia.

Stella: Anastasia, tell us a few words about the company you co-founded. What is Quantum?

Anastasia: First of all, thank you very much for the invitation, which I accepted with great pleasure. Quantum is an accounting and IT company, a collaboration between two very fundamental pillars of all businesses, regardless of size. It was founded about eleven years ago by myself and Giorgos Kaznetzov, after we returned from an important experience in Belgium, where we worked for two years, bringing with us all of our prior experience in our respective fields. I am an economist and certified auditor, and Giorgos is an IT specialist. So we joined forces wanting to create a services hub -an accelerator, I would say- for small and very small businesses and organizations, one that could offer a high level of service quality without incredibly high costs, and that would live through the experience of growth, because we were growing together with our partners, and that was the beautiful part.

Stella: And how many people are you now at Quantum?

Anastasia: We are now a total of 15 people. We are split between Athens and Thessaloniki. We have a fairly wide age range and different backgrounds, which essentially make up the accounting, IT, and operations teams, with operations touching both departments.

Stella: Let me add the disclaimer that Quantum has been a valuable partner of ours for -how long now- four years?

Anastasia: Three.

Stella: Three years. I should also say that the reason you are here today is because you have gone through the journey of building a business that is no longer very small -it is small, you have passed the number of 11- but at the same time you support, on a daily basis, other very small and small businesses. So you bring not only your own perspective, but also the perspective of many clients who have passed through your hands.

Anastasia: That’s true. And it was an invaluable experience for us as well. As I said earlier, we felt that we were growing together with our partners—not only our clients, but also the external collaborators we had for running the business. We exchanged experiences, and I I think that made all of us much better at what we do. We gained a better understanding of reality, and of economic reality in particular, partly because of our background and partly because the years we went through were difficult for many reasons and challenges. We learned a lot.

Stella: Sure. Drawing on all this experience -both your own and that of the businesses you have supported- and focusing on the core issue that CAREdiZO primarily addresses, which is the reconciliation of professional and private life for the people who work for us, with a particular emphasis on those who also have care responsibilities outside of work: where would you say that the ideal point is for a very small business or organization to stop relying on what we often say, “we have a good atmosphere here, we’re human, we can rely on one another,” and start putting things “on paper,” so to speak? To begin institutionalizing and clearly articulating policies and procedures related to leave, flexibility, working hours, anything that touches on work–life balance.

Anastasia: In truth, there is no point in the sense of numbers. That would help us, because we are people of numbers, but there isn’t one. What exists instead is complexity, a degree of complexity, and you mainly perceive it through indications.

Stella: For example?

Anastasia: For example, the difficulty of always being available to respond. Things need to move forward regardless of whether you are at a conference or a presentation, they still need to move forward. In accounting, we also have tight deadlines that are not set by us, nor can we shift them, and they carry costs if they are not met. So that’s where the realization comes in that some things are no longer easy to manage on our own. At the same time, people gradually join the team and bring their own particularities and dynamics. They have personal issues they are called upon to manage alongside their work. So, you begin to realize that this is no longer a one-man or one-woman show. You need to distribute responsibility, you need to share, and you need to put things down a bit, not to create additional bureaucracy, but to facilitate things and free people up to talk to you, and for you to talk to them.

Stella: From my own experience, I see two ways an entrepreneur can respond to this. One is to say, “Oh no, these people don’t work anymore, we can’t coordinate,” and put the blame on employees. The other is to realize that the organization is growing and needs a new structure and a new way of doing things. So where do you start?

Anastasia: For me, the key is communication. And communication is neither one-sided nor at a single level. It’s not that the founders sit down, write a policy, and say, “This is it, implement it,”

Stella: Take it…

Anastasia: As if the rest 12 people have no opinion or don’t live in this reality every day. That’s disempowering and doesn’t help with culture change or inclusion. So, first there needs to be a discussion around the maturity of the founders, to realize they can’t do everything on their own anymore, and we ourselves started on our own and the development was both rapid and with many issues to deal with. So, at some point we also came to realize that these things need to be addressed, we need to discuss them. Then there are the intermediaries, what we might call the management team, who act as buffers and are responsible for implementation and monitoring, and who receive feedback from both sides (founders and employees). Discussion at all these levels, and inclusion of the whole team is essential. When we decided to document these things, even something as simple as setting goals for the next year, we spoke with our collaborators, first the management team, and then the entire team. We set milestones for discussion, that we will talk about these two or three times, because there comes a difficulty of how long it will take us to make the policy. Maybe by involving more people…

Stella: Correct

Anastasia: Bureaucracies begin or we hinder development from some personal stereotypes that everyone may have. So, we set a program that we will discuss in these two phases of the year and decide after this second discussion. So, the more structured something is and the more inclusive I would say, the more we put the team into it, the easier it is to implement later. Without saying that challenges and things that we did not know or could not predict did not arise. But when we are aligned, we are all on the same page, we can deal with them more easily.

Stella: I would like you to tell me about these challenges. I recently received a comment from an HR employee from a larger organization than ours, but she made the point that, look at her, when a woman on our team is on her period and needs to go to the bathroom for a moment, she can raise her hand to signal to the shift manager and go. No further, blah blah. Why would I put this into a process that could create complaints. It could create sarcastic comments. It could embarrass people who were used to operating this way. Maybe, maybe, maybe. And not continue to rely on what has been working so far. So, what advice would you give to founders or executives who are hesitant to enter the process of formalizing a policy for fear of what kind of mess it will bring.

Anastasia: That we shouldn’t look at processes in isolation, and this actually touches on my work as well. So, it’s part of that area too. I’ll bring an example from work to see how similar the approaches are. When we tell our colleagues, “Okay, you need to keep documentation,” you need to have these supporting documents in your files in case there is a tax audit, a tax inspection, so that we can refer to them. For many people it’s difficult to accept all this archiving, even electronically, if possible, why it needs to exist, given electronic bookkeeping and all these developments.

Stella: Well, don’t ever hire me. I’d destroy the whole company.

Anastasia: I get it, on the one hand. But it’s also a form of prevention and, if you like, reassurance, peace of mind. It’s a form of care as well. Preventing stress when the time comes to referring to something, having it ready and being able to produce it. That’s how I see these processes within the team too. It’s not bureaucracy, it’s not something we want to box into rigid frameworks like the example you mentioned. On the contrary, we want to empower people who don’t have the courage to ask what applies in a given case. And there are many such people in our teams. They don’t feel comfortable asking, so they need to be informed about what they can do.

Stella: True

Anastasia: And feel free to do so. Or to think, “What a great idea this is,” whether they’re men or women in this example. To think, “What a proactive environment this is, I like the people here, and I like being part of this team.” So, it triggers many positive things, even though it adds one more step of communication or process.

Stella: Yes, for me this was a very pivotal moment in my development as a manager. When we received feedback from a team member who said, “I would like to know when I’m entitled to ask for this. When I don’t know, I find it difficult to ask because I’m afraid it might work against me.” That’s something I wouldn’t have thought of. And hearing it made me realize that it can work the other way too. It’s not only about a positive provision that helps me. Even if I see a restrictive provision, knowing about it and being able to plan accordingly, as an individual, as a family, is also very important.

Anastasia: Absolutely. And I would say it’s also relieving. No one needs to be put “in the spotlight, so to speak—using sports terms—just because they ask something. Especially in accounting, where I lead the department, the restrictions are even greater, because it’s less acceptable not to know what leave you’re entitled to. Someone might think, “This is part of my job, so if I say I don’t know labor law issues that I’m supposed to apply and advise clients on, I’ll be exposed even more.”

Stella: Exactly. Especially for provisions that don’t align directly with legislation.

Anastasia: They can be additional, employer-initiated, anything. And again, it touches work and finances, I like to say that it’s a social science.

Stella: It really is.

Anastasia: It belongs to the social sciences, and I like to emphasize that, because it touches so many different aspects. For example, that person might have to deal with an incident involving a client and will need the, let’s call it a heavy term, approach or way of communicating it. Because that too will involve an employee.

Stella: Right, right. You mentioned involving employees from the beginning of this process. What other stakeholders need to be activated for this process to move forward properly—whether because they have the knowledge, the experience, or whatever else?

Anastasia: I strongly believe in the power of networks.

Stella: Mmm.

Anastasia: So we actively reach out to our broader network of partners,not just clients, with whom we already have daily exchanges on labor issues or care-related matters, because they seek our advice or ask what the law stipulates, but also within broader collaborations. By nature of our profession, we work with a wide range of industries and sectors, so we hear many different stories and experiences. We want to hear them because they make us better. We discuss them internally within the team: “Look at that, great policy,” or “That was a huge distinction in X environment or Y.” And we get feedback from our team, which is easier to express because it’s a third environment, outside their own workplace. So their feedback flows more smoothly into what we discuss.

Stella: Right. And how important was the advice of a legal professional—a lawyer—in shaping these processes in your case?

Anastasia: Very important. Everything we draft as a policy comes from our own perspective, as accountants, IT professionals, a team, or from our experiences as employees. Having a legal advisor as the final review filter is crucial, because we can’t capture certain things with the same clarity. We add our own tone. Legal experts can make it more cohesive and more communicative. Not pointing to specific cases but focusing on the essence of the policy.

Stella: Right.

Anastasia: …of the policy.

Stella: That’s nice. I hadn’t thought of it that way. What was the biggest challenge for you personally, not for the business in general, but for you—in this process?

Anastasia: I struggled at two points. One I realized through real-life circumstances, and the other emerged indirectly during the process. The first was when I personally had to deal with a caregiving issue involving someone close to me, my mother, who became seriously ill and needed treatment for a period of time, and I was the one taking her to therapy. These were weekday working hours, so you can imagine the difficulty. It was also during COVID, which for us was a growth accelerator due to our involvement with businesses. The team was growing at a crazy pace, with new members joining constantly. At the same time, I was dealing with this situation and six months after giving birth to my second child. It was a lot. And at that moment, I realized we hadn’t anticipated something like this. It was our fifth or sixth year as a company, just as we were starting to grow, but we hadn’t thought about what would happen if the two of us leading the teams were unable to be present for any reason. That gave us a lot to think about and made us more attentive listeners to the team’s particular needs. That’s where the process began, leading to where we are now, having a designated person who acts as a link between the two teams, from operations, not accounting or IT, coordinating and helping us build these policies better and give the team the freedom I mentioned earlier: to share and not feel that work or the workplace is an obstacle to their personal lives, or an insurmountable wall when dealing with personal matters. We wanted to open these channels more and communicate earlier. We also had an incident in the team: someone from IT lost his father. He took the legally entitled leave, which he knew about because we’re an internal accounting department. But we felt he wasn’t ready to return. We spoke with him before he came back, offering condolences, but his psychological state was very poor. So, we collectively decided that he should take more time and return when he felt ready. He didn’t return directly to the office; he worked remotely first and then gradually returned. We saw this as a big success for the team, because everyone supported him. It wasn’t a unilateral decision from his department, it was something we all recognized and supported, even after he returned to the office.

Stella: And let me ask you something. Do such incidents, after a policy has already been created, lead you to modify parts of it or incorporate new needs you couldn’t foresee earlier?

Anastasia: Definitely. And flexibility is a key success factor for any policy, it must be reviewed annually. It’s a living thing, like the business itself. That’s what we tell all our partners about the policies we propose, regardless of whether they concern care-related issues or accounting matters. Nothing can be set in stone. It’s impossible, because it needs change and the way we work has changed dramatically in recent years. It bears no resemblance to how we started the business. So yes, at least once a year, there’s a discussion and recalibration of what we write and communicate to people.

Stella: Right. How has this whole process changed you and the company?

Anastasia: I feel a sense of entrepreneurial maturity, beyond just maturity.

Stella: A coming of age.

Anastasia: Exactly. We often say this with my co-founder: a business is like a child. Since we’re parents,the analogy fits. You start with it as a baby, fully dependent on you, just like the business depended entirely on the founders in the beginning. Then it enters childhood and has different needs. People join, it grows gradually.

Stella: You trust it to other hands.

Anastasia: Then comes adolescence, which is where we are now at Quantum. There’s an explosion of emotions and growth, just like in a teenager. That’s what we’re experiencing. Over time, we move toward maturity. But it starts with the two people maturing, us, who began this journey and along with us, the team. I believe that everyone who was part of this journey, even those who left, carry a piece of it. We recently celebrated ten years and had the joy of seeing many former team members join us. It was wonderful to see their growth and feel that they still carry this sense of connection.

Stella: And perhaps they’ve carried part of the culture they learned at Quantum into other workplaces as well. To close, if you were to give one piece of advice to a small business owner who wants to start thinking more strategically about employee support, what would you say?

Anastasia: Communication. Open up, don’t be afraid to share your own experiences, especially at the beginning, and listen to the community. Don’t be afraid to join networks of other entrepreneurs and learn. I’m privileged, because through my profession, I’m exposed to many businesses but that’s not the case for everyone. So don’t be afraid to open up. It’s incredible how common these issues are, regardless of size. That’s what I realized.

Stella: Anastasia, thank you so much.

Anastasia: Thank you.

Stella: And I wish us all a graceful coming of age.

Anastasia: Exactly. Thank you very much.

Conclusion: We hope you found today’s discussion with Anastasia interesting. We’d love to hear from you, what else do you think CAREdiZO could create to bring us one step closer to equality, both in and out of the workplace? We’re always here to read and listen to your suggestions, comments, and ideas. Follow us on social media, send us an email, leave us a review on Spotify, come meet us at WHEN Hub, and let’s continue the conversation so we can make WHEN and CAREdiZO even better for everyone.

Introduction: Welcome to the new season of WHEN on Topic. I’m Pinelopi Theodorakakou and I’m back to discuss with you women’s professional and economic empowerment and equality at work – sometimes even outside of it!  Our current podcast series is dedicated to caregiving responsibilities and their equal allocation, coming to you thanks to CAREdiZO. What is CAREdiZO? It is a new project we are involved in, under the European Commission’s CERV programme, which aims to bridge the gender gap in caring responsibilities by promoting equality practices at home, in micro-enterprises and small civil society organisations (with up to 10 employees). The project supports family-friendly policies, encourages men to participate in caregiving and highlights the value of caregiving in the wider society – in other words, what we have been advocating for all along! Its activities include research, co-creation workshops, training programmes and the development of digital tools, such as an educational game and podcasts, aimed at combating stereotypes and promoting equality. The rest of our partners come from Cyprus, Lithuania and Bulgaria and are currently developing their own podcasts, which you may have a chance to discover shortly.

In our episode today, we converse with Katerina Galani, Business Development Manager in the field of culture, and open up a different but equally important chapter: caring for employees who do not have care responsibilities in their personal lives. Often, discussions about work and care focus on parents or caregivers, but what does this mean for those who do not have children or other care responsibilities? What expectations, pressures, or stereotypes do they face? And how can an organisation support these individuals equally, recognizing their own needs and rights?

Pinelopi: Good afternoon, Katerina.

Katerina: Good afternoon.

Pinelopi: We are very happy to have you with us today.

Katerina: Happy to be here with you too. 

Pinelopi: Would you like to tell us a little bit about yourself, to introduce yourself to our audience?

Katerina: My name is Katerina, and I’m feeling good.

Pinelopi: That’s great to hear! 

Katerina: I have been working in the field of culture for some years now. And I think the reason we are discussing care today stems from a more specific and not purely professional interest in issues of inclusion and equality.

Pinelopi: Cool. I can share that one of the reasons I thought of inviting you to this specific episode is because the first time I invited you to a panel, it was something we had talked about before that panel. That during the coronavirus pandemic, we only talked about families, we mainly talked about mothers, and rightly so because it is a group who constantly, and especially at that time during the pandemic, experienced an unimaginable burden of caregiving responsibilities. At the same time, however, another group was also experiencing this – a group who continued to work but did not have typical caregiving responsibilities… And there was this general feeling that you, for example, could take on more than me, who has a child. So, we started discussing it, and I remember we had an exchange about whether we should bring up this issue on that panel or not. I don’t remember what happened eventually – I do remember that we had a great time on that panel, anyway… But it was my first thought again about who should come and talk about the topic we are discussing today. Then I took it a step further and, in my preparation for this episode, I did something that I have never done before for any other episode, and that is how today’s discussion will unfold: Our team at WHEN helped me gather questions. I wrote on our beloved Slack, which is the tool we use to communicate internally, that I would be hosting this episode. I didn’t reveal the guest because most of us know you personally and might have had very specific questions, so I didn’t reveal the guest’s name, but I asked us all to think about what questions we wanted to ask for this episode. And I’m going to ask you those questions today.

Katerina: Very nice. 

Pinelopi: So, are you ready?

Katerina: I’m ready. 

Pinelopi: Perfect. So, before I ask the group questions, let me ask you first what caring really means to you, both at work and outside of work.

Katerina: I’m thinking of some keywords. For me, care means providing, creating safe environments for those around me, and caring about the well-being and needs of those around me. What are those needs?

Pinelopi: So, if I combine the last word with the first, it is asking about needs, probably to provide for them on a personal as well as on a professional level.

Katerina: Right.

Pinelopi: I like that cycle. Besides, what we referred to before, about the pandemic, it occured because it was then that we saw it happening very intensely – before it happened behind closed doors as it is happening now too, but then the doors opened through our computers. So, as we said at the beginning, discussions about work and care often focus on parents and caregivers, so I want to start this episode by asking you what this means for those who do not have children or other caregiving responsibilities. Having this conversation may raise the question of what your needs are, and there may be an intention to provide for them, but it may be very focused only on this group: those who have children or have typical caregiving responsibilities, who care for a parent, for another relative, or something else of that sort…

Katerina: Firstly, I would like to point out that this may be the first time I have considered this question myself. I believe that even those of us who do not have the stereotypical caregiving responsibilities tend to assume that we are fine. We do not require any special treatment. So, in general, I think my first reaction when I received the email with the invitation, and its topic, was to gaslight myself.

Pinelopi: What do you mean? Can you explain that?

Katerina: It is like what do I need to be taken care of, who should take care of me and why? I am not sick, I don’t have any burdens, I don’t have children, dogs or cats.

Pinelopi: So why should anyone take care of you?

Katerina: Exactly, it’s like everything’s fine, all’s well. And little by little, as I worked it out in my head, I realised what this means, that “everything is fine”. Now, or a year ago. There was a certain framework for me when this realisation occurred last year. And somewhere along the way, a thread began to unravel slowly which led me to different thoughts on the subject.

Pinelopi: What was then your second thought that made you accept the invitation? Or rather, your third thought, because your second was something like, “I don’t think caring applies to me.”

Katerina: I think I realised that I wanted to convey that at some point we must stop making such stereotypical distinctions between groups. When we start categorising, that’s probably where exclusion begins. We talk about inclusion, and I think the problem starts with the fact that we have decided that there is an average to whom everything applies. We have a framework that covers 80% of cases, and then there are some very specific cases that, okay, now we are obliged to address them too, and we will put some policies in place for these poor people too. I think that’s where our problem starts. We all need care, we all have problems at some point, things happen to everyone.

Pinelopi: And I think it’s not just about that, and this is the next question, it’s not just about the case of emergency “only.” And I come to the question from a member of the team. It’s a big question. Stay with me. “Sometimes, employers’ interest in accommodating staff requests focuses on individuals who have formal care responsibilities.” As we were discussing earlier. “As a result,” says the person who asked the question, “I, who care for a dog, a partner, friends, or simply help my parents, without them being ill, do not feel comfortable expressing this, if I don’t feel that it is important enough,” – and I would add to the question: or even urgent. So, the question arises: “If my needs are not typically important or traditionally important and I don’t feel comfortable expressing them, what is then the problem that arises for me,” – and I will add myself as Pinelopi: for me but also the problem for the rest of the team too. This stereotype that I may not have anything urgent, I may not have parents who are sick, I may not have anyone who is sick. I just have to go to my parents’ house every Wednesday or open a door for someone, for example.  Or take care of a friend of mine who has had something happen to her. What does this distinction you’re talking about mean to me, because it is a kind of exclusion, we could say. That there are 80% of serious caregiving responsibilities and 20% of… Oh, okay…

Katerina: It causes… – again, I’m talking in keywords – the first thing that comes to mind is stress, frustration.

Pinelopi: Nice. Not real nice, but you get the point. Have you felt it?

Katerina: Yes. I mean, it’s like look at what I’m occupying myself with right now…

Pinelopi: Aah!

Katerina: When the other person may have two children to deal with.

Pinelopi: Right, so in relation to other colleagues, let’s say.

Katerina: Yes, and it starts internally first. I mean, I think that many times we do this to ourselves even before anyone else, like a colleague who has formal responsibilities, ever sees us that way. It starts within us. And it can go exactly the other way too. What happens often is me projecting this onto my colleagues. And every so often, I have had to correct myself. In my own team, for example, I may have taken a colleague off a project without realising it, because I thought she wouldn’t be able to run that event on a weekend – “she has a child”. But no – she could have, in reality. And she told me so, and we joked about it. Ever since, we collaborate in a very different way and organize work in a very different way.

Pinelopi: It’s interesting what you are saying, sometimes it does start with us. And how does one adapt? What steps have you taken to change it, if any? In terms of mindset, of not leaving anyone out as you’re saying, which is very important and we’ve discussed it many times on this podcast: we must first ask the question. Do you want to participate in this project? Can you participate in this project? And whether you want or can do it may not have anything to do with caring responsibilities. It comes down to what I think you can and can’t do, but we should not assume, nor take it for granted, that because one may have two children, seven dogs, a sick dad, that someone won’t be able to participate. So, I’ll leave that aside for now… It’s important, but for the sake of the conversation, I’m leaving it aside for now. This internal gaslighting you mentioned, how can it be reversed? I find it hard to believe that it lies solely on our responsibility, as individuals. 

Katerina: Of course not. I don’t mean to jump on the bandwagon of individual responsibility. I think it relates to the frameworks we have created in our professional environments – I am circling back to what I said earlier, basically. The problem starts with this kind of standardisation. It’s as if people, their time, and their relationships with work have become a single standard process, like a concrete assembly line. I don’t have the answer, that’s for sure. I don’t have the solution…

Pinelopi: We can’t have the answers to everything. And I certainly don’t have the solutions either.

Katerina: But I think that if we really want to deal with caring for people and teams, we must perceive them as valuable enough to have them stay on. Because if we don’t care for them, they won’t stay on. From the point of view of non-individual responsibility, going down to collective or corporate responsibility, it’s all about whether we see people as expendable. Like: “Katerina isn’t delivering, now, I’ll change her.” Because she has this or that problem. In my professional career, I once happened to be facing an urgent health problem –a temporary one, fortunately– which, upon my return, simply made me “the one who will cause problems in the future”.

Pinelopi: Okay.

Katerina: The feeble one. The one who gets leaves. There exists this pressure then.

Pinelopi: Being seen as the weak link.

Katerina: Exactly.

Pinelopi: Seen as potentially weak, just because you’d been weak before.

Katerina: In my opinion, as long as we consider team members and employees to be assets, invest in them, and take care of them, they will take care of the company’s well-being – the team’s and everyone’s. It is exactly the same kind of relationships that we build interpersonally. If I just ignore your needs, if I don’t ask how you’re doing, or whether you are able to do something, I can’t be expecting a relationship.

Pinelopi: I’m wondering about that, because you mentioned it earlier, as the last footnote in the opening session of this episode: when I ask about your needs, then I can provide for them, and therefore take care of you. This is what I’d keep as a threefold course of action, as I also like to speak in keywords – I like that. You said it before, that’s the “second thought” – as we call it in our organisation… That second thought we have, wanting to make sure that care has to do with needs, but also including professional needs therein. The example you gave earlier about your colleague and how you made sure to include her. You made sure she was included in the project, even though your first thought was that because she has children, she won’t be able or want to do it, or that she’ll be under pressure, possibly –I’m adding the keywords– if she’d had to work on weekends. In this sense, that is also a kind of caring. What happens then when this is reversed… and I’ll ask my colleague’s question here: “I have felt from employers and colleagues that ‘it’s okay, you don’t have children, you don’t get tired, or you have free time and you can run around, do something extra for work.’” So, that kind of pressure. You’ve felt it too. One question. And what’s your position.

Katerina: I don’t think that I have, not directly.

Pinelopi: Good! That’s great! We’re very happy for you.

Katerina: I mean, it hasn’t been as blunt or straightforward. I don’t think I’ve felt it in terms of workload, but I have felt the difference and this bias… I can share a great anecdote.

Pinelopi: Oh, please do tell us.

Katerina: One day at work, two colleagues decided on their own, without being asked or required to do so – I emphasise this – to perform manual labour that posed a very high risk to their physical integrity. It was, of course, their own responsibility to ensure that a special team would be brought in to do this. However, they did not do so and decided, instead, to climb what I ironically call a “rope ladder”. Meanwhile and on top of it all, they complained to me about it, they said “Look at the danger we got ourselves into, but how could you understand? You don’t have children. We are family men and we must weigh the risks.” In other words, two of my colleagues told me that it didn’t matter if I were to fall and get hurt, instead.

Pinelopi: Just so you know, for those of you who are listening, both me and our colleague here at sound are completely speechless… Go on…

Katerina: No, that was all. That’s the end of the story.

Pinelopi: What did you say?

Katerina: Exactly what I told you. That is, “since I don’t have children, I may as well fall and get hurt.”

Pinelopi: And what did they tell you? I’m not looking for gossip, I’m asking because these discussions… – and I’m not going to play the “if” card now… But I want to say that, not necessarily at that time, but at a later time, these discussions could be, first of all, an incident that opens your eyes to what’s going on… And if you had an HR position or –hypothetically speaking– If you had a position where you could have taken it further and said, “you know what, this happened…” and maybe “the other thing happened too,” and a third and a fourth and so on… “And I realize that there is an issue here, there is a misunderstanding about what we believe and what we think about each other within the company, how people within companies care for each other.” In other words, it could be a breaking point to kick-off this discussion – coming at a later time, not at that moment.

Katerina: Well, not at that moment. The fact that I responded with such sincerity was interpreted as humour, which somewhat mitigated the shock of that remark, because it is truly shocking when someone says that to you. It’s shocking, first of all, to think that they or anyone wouldn’t care about putting anyone’s physical integrity at risk – regardless of their family situation.

Pinelopi: And in reverse, that the risk should be a greater matter when there is a family behind you, a typical family behind you.

Katerina: Yes, exactly, it’s as if no one would cry for me if I fell down the stairs, or I don’t know. It’s laughable. And there’s another revealing anecdote. I call it an anecdote because it usually soothes the situation, because otherwise it’s shocking enough when someone says it to your face – I think the coping mechanism is a bit of fake humour to get it over with. When they scan you from head to toe, comment on what you’re wearing, and say, “But of course, you don’t have children and you have the money to do these things.”

Pinelopi: I see… Not having children can be used in any case: whether it has to do with your life and how much you risk it or not, or whether you have money or not to spend on how you dress.

Katerina: Yes, or you could say, “I went to that event,” or to an opening, an exhibition, a show, etc. and you get “Of course, you have time, since you don’t have children.”

Pinelopi: Let me ask you something, this stereotype…

Katerina: It’s that unnecessary comment which slips in on the spot in a casual conversation. It would never cross my mind if you told me you went to something amazing, wonderful, and did something with your time, to say to you, “Okay, Pinelopi, and what did you do with your kid?” Whereas when I tell someone what I did on the weekend, their thoughts immediately turn to the fact that I don’t have children.

Pinelopi: Let me ask you something: this comment comes mainly –in case you’ve noticed it– from people who have children or who don’t have children. I would say from those who do have children.

Katerina: Yes, that’s correct. I’ve never sat down with any of my friends who don’t have children and said, “Wow, how lucky we are to have time. Imagine if we had children, we would never have come to the concert.”

Pinelopi: Right, you don’t think about it that way. Okay, but even if it happens, it’s not something bad, you know. Nevertheless, I would like to return to what you said earlier, because pursuing professional growth and development –bringing us back to our topic– does not mean that I do not want to be taken care of by the management of the organisation, the company, the institution I belong to, and it certainly does not mean professional burnout. In other words, I may want to have a position of responsibility while leaving on time and not working overtime. I may want to develop while I am being taken care of, within a caring framework so that I am not overburdened because I have no care responsibilities, so that I don’t have to stay until midnight because others have formal care responsibilities and never stay on. This does not mean that care, which is what I want us to discuss, means that I do not seek opportunities.

 Katerina: In any case, I believe that in working relationships, regardless of what ambitions each person may have, whether they want to climb the ladder or not, everything is valid. I completely agree with you, and I think that a keyword I mentioned at the beginning is that there must be a framework. Wherever we want to go, be it with an employer or with a partner, we make a written or unwritten contract and trust from there on. I think that beyond that, yes, I recognize that it is completely irresponsible and out of place and out of time not to distinguish certain groups that have very specific and special needs.

Pinelopi: Good, that’s right.

Katerina: We can’t ignore this, see that everyone is not the same so there’s the individual way. But, at the same time, yes, every person is a special case, yes, there may be single-parent families whose financial background allows for much more and for comfort, and maybe they want to do overtime and everything else. And I think that what should always be at the centre of a professional relationship is that we stick to what we’ve agreed on and that there’s room for care, to be given the opportunity to talk to a supervisor, a colleague, the HR, whomever, depending on the size of the company, I say this because it also depends on the size of the company…

Pinelopi: Yes, we can assume that.

Katerina: …To anyone and everyone who can give me the flexibility to engage in dialogue, to express my needs… Because, if we can’t express ourselves to them, unfortunately, every day we go in the office there won’t be a person who walks over everyone and asks what their needs are today, it’s just not possible.

Pinelopi:  Okay, that’s the job of the future, you’re way ahead!

Katerina: We need open doors, open minds, open ears, so that we can have a dialogue and find a solution. At the moment, when there is no continuing formal permanent traditional responsibility framework, each time we have to talk about the urgency of what happened to me, for example, and find a way to take care of this need without burdening others, at the same time, so that it is mutually beneficial.

Pinelopi: Okay, I’ll keep three words – I’m keeping one new profession and two words, that there should be space and trust. I’ll add one extra word, the question, and I’ll put all of this in parentheses to say two things: One is that I feel we need to create a middle ground – And what is that? It’s the typical responsibilities of care, a group of people, and you’re talking about a group of people who, let’s say, don’t have typical responsibilities of care and something unexpected happens that they need to take care of. Let’s say my dog got sick, okay, I have a child, but let’s say I didn’t have a child and my dog got sick, that’s something unexpected and I have to tell the team, guys, the dog needs surgery, I’m sorry, I’ll be away for two days. But there is also a middle ground, and I want us to sit down for a moment and think about it, not in this episode, generally there is this middle ground, which one of my colleagues mentioned in her questions before… It is not necessary that something urgent is happening to me, it could just be that once a month my dog has to go to the vet. I am using the example of the dog because I can relate to it. Or once a week I need to leave early because my parents live far away and I need to go visit them, for example.

Katerina: Excuse me, I’m going to jump in here for a moment, if we’re going to get into the middle ground, the non-urgent, the non-emergency.

Pinelopi: The non-standard and non-urgent, so life basically.

Katerina: I want to put it differently: that every Friday I have to leave early because I do yoga, and it’s the only time.

Pinelopi: Yes, I agree.

Katerina: Because, as I said earlier, I think that we have the flexibility to create frameworks and relationships within the workplace where this flexibility exists.

Pinelopi: And it may be…

Katerina: Maybe I just have 100 reasons that we don’t need to mention now, and we can’t guess what might be going on with each person.

Pinelopi: And that’s exactly the second thing I wanted to say.

Katerina: For some reason, yes, it might be that I’ve had a burnout. Maybe I don’t do manual labour, I’m just stressed out by a thousand things. I may not even work overtime, but the typical eight-hour day I work may be so stressful.

Pinelopi: Or just maybe, I’m going through a breakup…

Katerina: Yes, also that.

Pinelopi: A divorce, or whatever…

Katerina: Maybe I just need to take a few days off. I need a few days off just to collect myself, to pick up the pieces, to see what’s going on with me, to rest, a thousand things. Which, yes, are part of the plan, and that’s where I’ll come back to the starting point of our discussion, which is that as we open the discussion on inclusion and equal treatment, we begin to see little by little that this whole issue starts from the froth of the average and how exactly we consider it to be the average – and that we are all Greeks.

Pinelopi: It’s no longer an average.

Katerina: Exactly, and I don’t really like the word “special” when referring to the most special groups, but since we’re talking about this dichotomy that exists in our everyday lives.

Pinelopi: Underrepresented may not be the average, may not be the typical traditional average.

Katerina: There, among the most vulnerable and excluded groups of people, the symptom erupts violently, so from the moment we discuss care, it has started from where we saw it erupt. Basically, we were forced, so that they wouldn’t call us malicious and inhumane, to build some frameworks for these people. And gradually, eyes began to open and we began to name our needs and to start recognizing what is wrong and how much we are oppressed in our daily lives… Because that is the starting point: I am on autopilot, I don’t have a sick person at home, I don’t have children who require my constant care, so everything is fine – No.

Pinelopi: No, because I may not be going through a breakup, but I do have my period.

Katerina: Yes, for instance…

Pinelopi: I want to stay with the period because you said before, and as far as I know, there is no such profession as someone who comes by every day and asks what you need, what your needs are, but I also agree that the principle of the matter cannot just be: “Katerina, what do you need? Pinelopi, what do you need?” Instead, asking this question not within a different context every day, I want to ask you what you think this context should be or what you think is needed, because I don’t like the word “should”. What can a team do to find out what is important to you as Katerina, what it entails taking care of you… And then we can group it together… That is, see if this context that will be created and will begin to be implemented on a pilot basis at the beginning could be applied, get feedback, see if it works or not. It may not have emerged, or rather, it may not cover all the needs of Electra (our colleague here at sound), Pinelopi, Katerina, Maria, and Iphigenia, but from these responses, grouped points will emerge, such as the one I am coming to talk about: the period. Policies regarding women who are experiencing a difficult period, perhaps not every month, those times when we have a difficult period and we really can’t go to work or we prefer to work with our blanket if we are allowed that luxury, so now we are also talking about a privileged situation where I can do that, work from home. But I may be working in a warehouse and simply needing to not go to work. This discussion about periods has also arisen from this. From this grouping of these needs. So, caring and periods.

Katerina: Caring and menstruation is definitely an issue, and I’d say I am one of the very fortunate people who have not been affected by it.

Pinelopi: Okay. Me too.

Katerina: That doesn’t mean I don’t notice the world around me, that I don’t talk to other women, or that I haven’t noticed my female colleagues coming in and dragging themselves around, swallowing a pill every couple of hours, while seated next to you at work… That is a problem, they shouldn’t find themselves in the office, they should be somewhere else resting, instead, or at least not having to be in public view in this condition, feeling exposed at the office where anyone can see you like that. I’ll say it again that I wouldn’t know what to suggest and how it could be, as it is not my job to create such systems… It is not my job to design and create systems, so I don’t know if I have an answer to this, but I am speaking from my personal experience of the office ecosystems I have encountered.

Pinelopi: Right, of course.

Katerina: Certainly, I consider it essential that if someone has this need –if a female colleague has this need, more accurately, since we are talking about a very specific need– they should know that this is allowed to happen. But at the same time, for better or worse, the office ecosystem is a bit like that sometimes, it starts to create parent-children dynamics: “Why is she allowed more than me?” I may not have my period or experience it that way, but when I had a hard time, why wasn’t I allowed more? So, I think that overall, if I had to give an answer and a solution to this, I’d say that we should have a policy of two extra days off or five extra remote workdays per month for everyone… That way, others could benefit from it by saving time off the road, if they live far away, and others because they might have difficult periods to deal with. This would create a fairer situation within the team… And no one would have to hear that horrible comment that a woman returning after maternity leave might hear now, that “she’s been on vacation”.

Pinelopi: Yes, of course, an all-time favourite.

Katerina: Horrible and all-time favourite at the same time. Still, it exists.

Pinelopi: I know it well! And you are also raising the issue of trust, and I think we should conclude with that. The trust that I, as an individual, will be offered a framework, what will be set as a framework, that I can make effective and proper use of, to take care of myself and the team at the same time – as well as the trust that I will not exploit it. This is also a matter of building trust within teams in the workplace. That there will be a menstrual leave, that there will be this kind or any other kind of facilitation, but written down and agreed upon. And that we will be able to access it, at least initially, in various teams. There may be a policy for menstruation when I am not a person who has this specific need, but there may be another policy that can cover my own needs… And, I’ll say it again, we should not start by assuming that if we open this discussion, all the needs of the person who comes and asks will be immediately covered. Let’s not start by assuming that if we open this conversation, all the needs of the person who comes and asks us will be immediately met, because small steps are enough as long as we also build that trust that this won’t be subject to exploitation. We are here to take care of each other, not to grab whatever we can. Isn’t that important too?

Katerina: It’s really important, and now that you mention it, I hadn’t thought about that, which is why I’m telling you that it’s not my job to create systems and strategies, but at the same time, I would include the menstrual leave within a framework of discussion on invisible disabilities.

Pinelopi: Invisible disabilities.

Katerina: Yes, that’s exactly right. I have experienced this to a certain extent during some phases in my life. I have daily invisible difficulties, which are not visible – not like a limp, for example. And [I need] a work environment that allows for this, to take up this space, to have an open door where you can say that I experience this, I have this issue… Because the official strategy helps, especially in larger ecosystems, I would say, which goes beyond the level of five people who know each other and have closer relationships. The official policy and official strategy of an organisation or company is what can create trust a priori.

Pinelopi: Perfect. We’ll conclude with that, with the word trust. You may have said it twice, I don’t know what will make it into the final cut, but you said twice that you are not a person who creates systems and procedures, but from the very first minute of the episode, you gave a system and a procedure: that is, asking questions to learn, so that you can provide. Therefore, I see this as a framework that even small organisations and small companies could implement, as these groups are the focus of the CAREdiZo project. All small groups can do this at no particular cost, and we can at least start this discussion with the intention of moving it forward and having it become a policy, a process that will be implemented on a pilot basis and that we can further explore. Thank you very much, Katerina, I really enjoyed it. I hope you did too.

Katerina: Thank you very much for giving me food for thought for many days.

Pinelopi: Thank you very much!

Pinelopi: What did you think of everything that we discussed with Katerina today? What other actions do you think CAREdiZO could develop to bring us one step closer to equality, in and out of the workplace? We are here to read and listen to your suggestions, comments and ideas: follow us on social media, email us, leave a review on Spotify, come and meet us at the WHEN Hub at the centre of Athens and let’s keep the conversation going… to make WHEN –and CAREdiZO– even better for the benefit of everyone, women and men.

Introduction: Welcome to the new season of WHEN on Topic – I’m Stella Kasdagli and yes, you’re not mistaken, our podcast’s name has changed, as our organisation’s name did! Women On Top became WHEN, but as before it continues to invest in women’s professional and economic empowerment and equality at work – sometimes even outside of it! 

For example, our current podcast series is dedicated to caregiving responsibilities and their equal allocation, coming to you thanks to CAREdiZO.

What is CAREdiZO? It is a new project we are involved in, under the European Commission’s CERV programme, which aims to bridge the gender gap in caring responsibilities by promoting equality practices at home, in micro-enterprises and small civil society organisations (with up to 10 employees).

The project supports family-friendly policies, encourages men to participate in caregiving and highlights the value of caregiving in society generally – in other words, what we have been advocating for all along! Its activities include research, co-creation workshops, training programmes and the development of digital tools, such as an educational game and podcasts, aimed at combating stereotypes and promoting equality. The rest of our partners come from Cyprus, Lithuania and Bulgaria and are currently developing their own podcasts, which you may have a chance to discover shortly.

In our episode today, we welcome a mother and caregiver, Maria Stoupa, who, unlike most of the other people we have spoken to so far in previous episodes, is not currently working.

And the fact that she does not work, as you will hear in our interview, is closely related to the responsibilities she has taken on for her family as a whole and in particular for her son, Dimitris, who has low-functioning autism. So let’s hear what Maria has to say.

Stella: Maria, welcome.

Maria: Nice to be here. Thank you very much for this opportunity to talk with you.

Stella: Would you like to tell us a few words about why you are here today?

Maria: I am here because I am Dimitris’ mother. He is a child with low-functioning autism. He is 12 years old. And throughout this journey, I have met many people, either from the disability movement or the parents’ movement, and I often speak on their behalf.

Stella: Since you mentioned both the parents’ and the disability movements, could you give us an idea of the demands of these movements in Greece at the moment?

Maria: For years, the parents’ movement has been essentially demanding and supporting whatever structures exist to support people with disabilities. There are no public structures.

Stella: Are there no public structures at all?

Maria: Not at all. Everything that exists, which is completely inadequate, is the result of the demands of the parents’ movement.

Stella: What you say is very important, because one of the themes of this podcast and the work we do through CAREdiZO, as WHEN, has to do with the responsibility of the private sector in supporting people with care responsibilities at work. And I think it’s perhaps even more important to continue talking about this responsibility, given that public structures are as inadequate or non-existent, as you mention. Maria, what does caregiving mean to you? When you hear the word “care”, what comes to your mind?

Maria: It’s a kind of protection that goes two ways, a very warm feeling making you feel good, whether you’re giving or receiving. For me, care is my whole family, all of us sharing the same path.

Stella:  Are there also any people, situations, or environments outside your family that you would associate with caregiving?

Maria: Joining the parents’ movement has definitely helped a lot along the way. First of all, it helped me gain strength. I was not alone. There were many mothers, many families, many children and adults with the same diagnosis as my son. And all of this helps you become stronger.

Stella: And receive care.

Maria: Yes.

Stella: How old was Dimitris when you joined this movement?

Maria: Dimitris was five. And at the same time, my daughter was born.

Stella: Who is now seven.

Maria: Yes.

Stella: Nice. If I were to ask you 13 years ago, before Dimitris came into your life, what was your perception of caregiving, what was your experience up to that point, either as a child, as a partner, or at work?

Maria: In general, in my family environment, with my partner and in my relationships, everything was pretty good. Balanced. At work, maybe a little more competitive than I could handle.

Stella: And twelve years ago, Dimitris was born, and you experience a different aspect of caregiving than you might have imagined as being a mum.

Maria: It was a very conscious choice.

Stella: Would you like to tell us a little bit about this process, about this journey?

Maria: This journey started out very beautifully. It was, let’s say, planned. It was something we wanted very much. Our life was balanced enough for this child to come along. My husband and I felt very fulfilled by our lives up to that point. So, this was a step we were looking forward to.

Stella: Can you tell us about Dimitris’s early years, your relationship with him, and how you experienced this transition.

Maria: Until he was 15 months old, Dimitris seemed to be developing typically. He was a child who followed the “developmental milestones” for his age. Then suddenly, at 15 months, Dimitris’s behaviour changed completely, and we realised that something was up. A few months later, we received the diagnosis.

Stella: And how was your journey, your own inner, emotional journey?

Maria: It’s a terrible situation in the sense that the anxiety before the diagnosis puts you in a state of mourning with all the stages. Denial, anger, bargaining, depression, until the time comes to accept it and move on.

Stella: Would you like to share a little more about these stages? Because, you know, we hear about them, we have them in our minds as something that happens either in a specific order, or back and forth, or with a delay in some stages. For example, how did you experience the negotiation stage?

Maria: To be honest, I don’t remember that period very well. The negotiation was whether the child would talk or not…

Stella: That if he talks, then… 

Maria: Yes, that if he talks, then okay, we’ll be fine. But all of this is a bit hypothetical from the moment autism is diagnosed. Autism is a very difficult condition, both in low and high functioning cases.

Stella: Did you work back then?

Maria: Not at that time. I had stopped working to raise my son. So parenthood was very much a choice.

Stella: And when would you place that moment, which was certainly not just a moment, but a path of arrival at acceptance. How did it come about for you?

Maria: Acceptance came when my daughter arrived. That’s when I faced up to my responsibilities. What am I doing? I am bringing a new member into the family. In what environment will I raise this person? How will I help them to be raised within the different family they come from? What if the child has a disability? It’s something you can’t know. So that’s what pushed me to take the next step, together with a very good friend of mine who suggested I join an association for people with disabilities in Chalkida.

Stella: And what did that decision mean?

Maria: I found other people like us.

Stella: Who helped you answer the questions you mentioned earlier, meaning, how can I help this child? What is my responsibility towards him?

Maria: Yes. As well as what my expectations could be.

Stella: Such as? 

Maria: Whether he speaks or not. He will still be autistic. So, I gave other priorities to what needed to be done in my son’s intervention. And so far, I feel very good about it.

Stella: Can you give us an example?

Maria: For example, I am more interested in my son being able to sit down and go out for a family meal, have a social life, and have family friends and a social circle, than him being able to use verbal communication. To be able to eat, to eat with dignity at a table. To be able to sit down to eat with dignity at a table. To be able to socialise so that he is accepted. That is the most important thing of all. And the biggest challenge.

Stella: Is Dimitris’s father involved in this process, has he been involved from the beginning as much as you have, I mean in networking with this community, the other parents?

Maria: No, no. My husband was just behind. But supporting me, all along. I mean, I’ve almost never had to worry about who would take care of my son when I had to be at a general meeting or an event, or anywhere else. He’s always there to support me so that I can achieve what is my goal in my life.

Stella: Why do you think there is this difference in the need you may have had to join a broader movement and a particular community? Between you and him. Why is it that you need it more perhaps?

Maria: There’s always this balance among couples. Like, we always complement each other. We each choose the jobs we like to do. We prioritise among ourselves, in a way. In general, there’s really good cooperation and support.

Stella: And would you say that this was an element in your family life from the beginning, and when the children came along and when Dimitris was diagnosed, I imagine that it changed some expectations and some balances within the family to a certain extent…

Maria: Yes, it has been like that always. 

Stella: Good. I sometimes tell my children that you gain something, you lose something, along the way. What do you feel you have gained from this experience of growing up caring not only for Dimitris but also for your family as a whole, and what is it that you may have lost or mourn?

Maria: You know, the truth is, once I accepted it, my kid’s autism became a milestone in my life. I went out, talked about it publicly, tried to help and get help together, and all that gives me a lot of inner strength.

Stella: Which is a great gain for you and your family, of course.

Maria: Yes, it’s a huge gain.

Stella: What do you mourn on the other hand?

Maria: Hmm… I think I’ve left mourning behind now. The state of mourning I described before the diagnosis has to do with the dreams you had before the diagnosis. For your child. Every parent idealises, thinks about, makes plans for their children, let’s say, that they could become this, that they have a talent there… So, the diagnosis kills all that. Because we have a completely different situation now. Right now, I have other dreams for Dimitris. But I still have them.

Stella: That’s what I wanted to ask you. Sometimes we draw a parallel between caring for children and caring for other people who depend on us, such as the elderly or the sick. And for me, at least, a big difference is that caring for children is accompanied by what you describe, the dreams and expectations we have for the future. Whereas caring for an older person who for example may be ill, may have dementia, or may be reaching the end of their life, is not usually accompanied by these expectations for the future. So, I think what you’re saying is very important, that it’s not that the dreams you have for your child are lost, the dreams change. And I want to ask you if this is true and if these dreams actually give you the strength to be the best caregiver you can be.

Maria: Of course. For example, socialisation is a big deal. The way we behave in our neighbourhood, on our way to school where Dimitris has to greet the whole neighbourhood to get used to this interaction. And it’s going really well. I see the smile on my son’s face, which had been lost for years. Because there had been that moment, I’d describe it as a switch being turned off, when a smiling child suddenly lost his smile, lost eye contact, was no longer interacting, when before he did interact… After many years, I saw that smile again, consciously, and he interacted with me.

Stella: Yes, that is a big deal, indeed. How do you balance caring for Dimitris? You can enlighten us on how different or how similar it is to be caring for other people in your family and your environment. And how do you balance these needs – what’s your daughter’s name?

Maria: Mirela.

Stella: So, how do you balance your needs and the responsibility you felt when you were about to bring Mirela into the world, between the different parts of this caregiving, the specific caregiving ecosystem, which you have to participate in and support?

Maria: First of all, I have to tell you that when people ask me how many children I have, I often say two only children.

Stella: How’s so? 

Maria: Because they have completely different needs. At most parties where Mirela is invited, for example, Dimitris cannot participate because he has auditory sensitivity and cannot be in a noisy environment, which is usually the case at children’s parties.

Stella: Always the case. 

Maria: In many situations, anyway, whether it’s entertainment or education for the child, they have to be done in parallel. And that’s where the good balance comes in that we have with my partner, my husband. Because we support each other so that the needs of both children are met.

Stella: And that includes caring for your partner, your partner caring for you, and possibly caring for yourself. More necessarily than possibly, I hope, it includes caring for yourself and for your social life and friendships. And I don’t know if you have parents or other people in the family that you need to support in addition. So, there are many pieces, and I wanted to ask you how you make this work for you.

Maria: For now, it’s us, the core family. The rest are not in need of our care. We work very well at this. And, of course, we have to say that all this takes a lot of time. That is why I don’t work.

Stella: That would be my next question, which is actually several questions. What would need to happen so that if you wanted to work, you could work? In other words, what would need to happen at the state level, at the employer level, and at the family level so that a mother with a child with low-functioning autism could work if she wanted to?

Maria: The situation in general for mothers who have children with disabilities, unless they work for a very large organisation where conditions may be different or where the few existing laws on support are respected, is that it is impossible to work. I would say that state intervention is non-existent. Honestly, it is really non-existent. There are no support structures. And our children cannot be cared for by just anyone. I know mothers who have given up their careers. I know mothers who, a few years ago, in the last decade before their retirement, were forced to give up their jobs. And that’s because their children grew up and their grandmothers could no longer cope. Recently, a friend of mine who works for an organisation in Chalkida, where we live, and who has two children with severe autism, asked her employer to work reduced hours. There is a law in place. I can tell you she faced incredible opposition from both her superiors and her colleagues.

Stella: Just because of her request to work reduced hours?

Maria: The request was finally approved. Indeed, at this moment. But why did she have to go through all that psychological pressure? Her life is already very stressful on a daily basis. In other words, there was a hostile reaction all over.

Stella: Yes, I can imagine. I do understand this, unfortunately. Sometimes when discussing issues that concern work, we forget that this kind of pressure, this exclusion, doesn’t just affect the mental balance or the enjoyment of daily life. In many cases, financial survival depends on it as well. So, whether I can continue to work for an employer with the care responsibilities I have at home and get paid for it depends to a large extent on how my employer will treat me and my caregiving responsibilities.

Maria: And it’s worth noting that we live in an age where everyone is chasing numbers – targets… A mother whose child may be going through, for example, what I went through for long periods of time with sleep disorders. You’ve been up all night, and this has been going on for a long time, and you can’t catch up on your sleep. You are tired. You are psychologically exhausted. How much can you perform? How much can others support you in this? Your colleagues. How understanding will your employer be – who has targets to meet?

Stella: You mentioned earlier that this might be easier in a large company, which may have certain policies, even some that go beyond state policies, or at least may be obliged to give more weight to complying with such policies. What happens in smaller companies, and I understand from your position so far that you consider it more difficult for a mother or a parent, in any case, with a child with a disability to get support in a smaller company? I wonder if you see any opportunity there. Perhaps there is more flexibility, more human contact in the work environment, or is it just more difficult?

Maria: In my experience so far, the boundaries are very clear. Either you perform, or you go home. Alas, the 13-hour workday is currently being introduced. What flexibility are we talking about? People are working longer hours every day anyway. And now it’s becoming legal. I think it’s completely hostile.

Stella: Is it particularly hostile to mothers, and if so, why?

Maria: Because it hardly leaves any time away from your role as an employee, or any time for a mother. Which is again the responsibility of the parent. Everything comes down to individual responsibility. And that is completely wrong. My child’s education, yes, it’s my responsibility. But shouldn’t there also be state support or responsibility? Responsibility rather than support.

Stella: I wonder, though, why this is so different for a father than for a mother. I mean, we’ve been talking for so long about whether a mother with a disabled child can continue to work, and we’ve talked less about whether a father can. Maybe that’s because… Well, obviously someone has to work to support the family. But how easy is it to take it for granted that this someone will be the father?

Maria: How much less are women paid? I mean, it’s still the case that women’s salaries are lower, even in 2025, and often they are paid less for the same work. Let’s not forget either that workplaces that employ more women usually have lower salaries.

Stella: So, you’re saying that who gets to work is ultimately a financial decision.

Maria: A woman’s salary is considered to be less significant.

Stella: If you were to think about the ideal small employer – leaving large companies out of the equation for now… If you were to think about the ideal small employer, what should that employer do or not do in order to support, more or less effectively but certainly with high standards, a mother, and in particular mothers with a disabled child.

Maria: What could they do? The targets could be more realistic. Often the targets set are too ambitious… But how could it all… I don’t think it could work. I mean, I’m trying to get my head around it. I don’t think so. Everyone is chasing profit. I don’t see who would show this flexibility or understanding and put profit aside or in second place.

Stella: However, having an employee work reduced hours based on what is established by law for reduced hours does not necessarily harm profits. It’s more about whether the employer is willing to adopt a different working model and listen to the needs of employees, which change over time. Assuming that we are talking about for-profit businesses, employers who are for-profit businesses, so they need to be sustainable. Let’s take that for granted. How can a for-profit company become more welcoming and supportive of people with caregiving responsibilities?

Maria: I find that very difficult. I can’t get to see the picture. But I can see how the situation could be different if the state took responsibility.

Stella: Tell me more about this. 

Maria: I can think of a simple example. My son’s school is the only one in the area. It is a special school and does not operate on a full-day program. Is there a job that ends at 1:15 p.m.? Where do I have to be to pick up my child? There are no daycare centres. There are very few creative activity centres, public or private, which do not even meet minimum needs for proper adjustment. There is no support. Everything comes down to individual responsibility.

Stella: I imagine you know many mothers who are involved in the parents’ movement and have children with disabilities. What percentage would you say would like to continue working if the conditions allowed?

Maria: All of them, I think. 

Stella: And why is it so? 

Maria: Why? Because, in addition to the financial comfort that an extra salary will bring to your household, and the insurance coverage, it is a way of taking care of yourself. To grow as a person.

Stella: The reason I am asking…

Maria: Or just… –excuse me– …to simply work. When caregiving is not shared it becomes an oppression factor. 

Stella: How can caregiving be shared?

Maria: It is shared when many people help. But this role, socially, falls exclusively to women. How many times have we heard the expression “Where was the mother?” In other words, it is always, always –how can I explain it– that caregiving has a gender.

Stella: There are two reasons why I’m asking this. For one, sometimes we assume that women prefer or are comfortable with not working, for various reasons. The second reason is that we talk so much about the demographic issue and the aging population that we forget that there is this huge potential workforce that wants to work, I believe that all of them would like to work, want to work, and are not given the opportunity to work because the conditions you described do not exist. And taking a cue from what you said about caregiving having a gender, I wanted to ask you whether, over the years and from your experience caring for Dimitris, your own perspective on gender roles has changed, in relation to the stereotypes we are discussing, in relation to the treatment and mistreatment that women still suffer today in Greek society, and whether you see things differently than you did 13 years ago?

Maria: I’d say definitely not. Nothing has changed in that regard. I strongly believe in gender equality. I believe that women should be supported so that they can work, have a social life, and enjoy their role as parents. Because parenthood is a beautiful journey. And I want to share something that has stuck in my mind, every time I’ve heard it. I’ve heard expressions that have hurt me deeply. The worst was, and I’ve heard this more than once, “You’re lucky, you have a girl, she’ll take care of her brother.” In other words, many people around us have decided on my daughter’s life, they have concluded that she must take care of her brother and be responsible for him, something I had never even considered for my child.

Stella: And they wouldn’t have come to the same conclusion if the roles were reversed. That is, expectations wouldn’t be the same if it were for a boy.

Maria: I wouldn’t think so, no. 

Stella: Or there would be no expectations…

Maria: I think society has decided that all of this, caring for someone in need, someone with special needs, is the responsibility of the mother. It’s the responsibility of the woman, the sister. And that’s unfair.

Stella: And the daughter.

Maria: And the daughter, indeed. She is given a role that she has not chosen. A role I would never want her to take on, because it’s not her responsibility. What must be done for Dimitris and anyone else like Dimitris should be a responsibility of the state.

Stella: You mentioned that it is women’s right to enjoy parenthood. And I wonder if we recognise the same right for men. Whether we allow men the right and opportunity to enjoy their own parenthood.

Maria: I think we do now. And it’s something that a large percentage of them want. There are certainly stereotypes in society, but we are definitely evolving. We are evolving well. Some are, at least. Of course, all this has to do with the balance within the family. Based on respect, you function as…

Stella: A system. 

Maria: Right, as a system.

Stella: Maria, where do you get care from?

Maria: Overall, from many sources. I have a very good relationship with my siblings. It is very supportive to have people who are close to you. I have a very good relationship with my husband. Friends. All that. In general, of course, I am a very independent person.

Stella: As is often the case with women.

Maria: Yes, it’s true. It’s a trait of mine too. At the same time, I won’t hesitate to ask for help, and I always know that there are people around me who are there and will help me when I need it, when I ask for it.

Stella: Maria, thank you very much for this conversation. We wish you, your partner, Dimitris, Mirela, and all the mothers and fathers who are striving for something better for their families and their children in particular, all the best.

Maria: I hope that the whole perspective on intellectual disability will change and that other things will evolve, including in relation to the employment of people with disabilities. I feel that I represent not only myself but also all my friends who share the same struggles every day. Thank you very much.

Stella: We thank you as well.

Conclusion: What did you think of everything that we discussed with Maria today? What other actions do you think CAREdiZO could develop to bring us one step closer to equality, in and out of the workplace? We are here to read and listen to your suggestions, comments and ideas: follow us on social media, send us an email, leave a review on Spotify, come and meet us atWHEN Hub inthe centre of Athens and let’s keep the conversation going… to make WHEN –and CAREdiZO– even better for the benefit of everyone, women and men.

Introduction: Welcome to the new season of WHEN On Topic. I’m Penelope Theodorakakou, and I’m back with you to discuss women’s professional and economic empowerment and equality at work. Sometimes even outside of it. This season of our podcast is dedicated to caregiving responsibilities and their equal distribution, and it comes to you thanks to CAREdiZo. What is “CAREdiZo?” It’s a new project we’re involved in as part of the European Commission’s “CERV” programme, which aims to bridge the gender gap in caring responsibilities by promoting equality practices at home, in micro businesses, and small civil society organizations employing up to ten people. The project promotes family- friendly policies, encourages men to participate in caregiving, and highlights the value of caregiving across society, which is what we have been aspiring to for so long. Its activities include research, co-creation workshops, training programmes, and the development of digital tools, such as an educational game, for example, but also podcasts like the one you are listening to here today, to fight stereotypes and promote equality. Our partners are based in Cyprus, Lithuania, and Bulgaria and are currently creating their own podcasts, which you might have the chance to get to listen soon. In this episode of the podcast, we’re talking with Poppy Sevastou, a mom and bartender, and Mina Habib, a mom and communications manager – a couple and parents – to have an open conversation about how traditional caregiving roles are being redefined. Together, we discuss how they share everyday responsibilities, what challenges and stereotypes they encounter, and what changes they’d like to see so that care becomes fairer and more inclusive for all families. Mina and Poppy, good evening.

Mina: Good evening from us, too.

Poppy: Hi Penelope, good evening, and thank you so much for giving us the chance to be here with you today.

Penelope: Thank you so much as well for accepting the challenge—did I say that right? Would you like to start by introducing yourselves to our listeners? Poppy, do you want to go first?

Poppy: Sure. I’m Poppy Sevastou, as you mentioned earlier. I’m a bartender –  I make drinks, I try to enjoy my day, and I really love being a mom. That’s me. Do you want to know anything else?

Penelope: No, but let me just note – when you say you make drinks, this usually means you work at night, correct?

Poppy: Right, not always, but yes, at the moment, you’re absolutely right. I work at night.

Penelope: Okay. Mina?

Mina: I’m Mina Habip. I’m a mom and I work as a communications manager for a large cosmetics company. Right now, I’m on maternity leave. I’m with Poppy –  we’re both moms to our little one, who’s ten months old. And I also really love being a mom and spending time with our baby.

Penelope: And let’s just say – their ten-month-old is currently having some creative playtime at the Hub’s childcare space, which is mainly why you’ve both been able to join us here today.

Mina: We’re really lucky for that, and thank you.

Penelope: I want to take a step back. Before you became parents, before you became moms/mothers – and this is a question you can probably only answer now that you are parents.  Looking back, how did you imagine your role as a parent before having a child? That’s the first part of the question. And how has it actually turned out to be? I’d like to hear both the good and the not-so-good parts.

Mina: Do you want to start, Poppy?

Poppy: Yes, of course. I’ll start, because I was the first one in our family – and we were a family even before Alkis came along,  we didn’t suddenly become one now — but I was the one who started pushing for it. I’m also a bit older than Mina, so something had been stirring inside me for a while. Actually, if I go further back, it had been there for many years; I always used to say that I wanted to have a child, ever since I was a kid. Back then, I even thought it would be with a man! But I finally made it happen at 41, well, actually 42. It took me a bit longer than I would’ve liked, but I got there. So, it’s something that had always been in my mind, like I knew exactly what I was supposed to do. And honestly, I don’t see much of a difference—only joy. It all feels natural; it just flows. I wouldn’t call the challenges “difficulties.”  I’d just say there are some everyday emergencies, but they always get sorted out because, thankfully, I have a great team around me. So for me, there is nothing I can say about “before” and “after.” It all just came together naturally.

Penelope: Like there’s a kind of flow, right? Like it came naturally to you.

Poppy: Exactly. Maybe also because I had been waiting for it for so long—that probably played a role.

Penelope: Nice. I’m holding on to that word you used – team. I’ll come back to it later, because “team” can mean so many things: the people you work with, your community, your support network. I’ll circle back to that. Mina, what about you—the before and after?

Mina: For me, to be completely honest, it’s exactly how I imagined it. The feeling I had while waiting and anticipating this to happen – the excectation has lived up to that 100%. There’s so much joy, so much tenderness, so much care, and such a deep sense of fulfillment. Of course, there are also difficulties, everyday challenges, and moments of exhaustion, but what truly stands out, what outweighs everything else, is the joy.

Penelope: Tell me one of the hard parts.

Mina: I’d say it’s this constant fatigue – a kind of underlying anxiety and sense of responsibility. They’re new feelings for me, but it is exactly what I imagined they’d be. Being with Poppy as my partner and raising a child together has turned out exactly as I pictured it — it just fit naturally into my life. I had been waiting for this little one for such a long time, so maybe that also plays a role; I was really prepared for what was coming. So, nothing about it has surprised me. Of course, there’s the weight of responsibility and the tiredness, but they don’t overshadow the joy.

Poppy: Yes, because in our case, since we’re two women, this wasn’t something that just “happened.” It was planned  many times, actually. So imagine that with every failed attempt – I mean through in vitro fertilization (IVF) – we got closer and closer to the reality we were envisioning. Naturally, there are challenges; it would be unfair to say we’re these two crazy women claiming that having a child is perfect and effortless. It’s just that, so far, those difficulties haven’t dominated our daily life, yet.

Mina: I’ll say something that might come up later in our conversation. I think it plays a huge role that we’re two women. Stereotypically, there’s no idea of “I have a husband who helps” or “I have a very supportive partner.” Everything is shared equally, by default. And that in itself probably helps a lot. But since that’s simply the kind of family we are, we haven’t really stopped to think deeply about how it works in other families.

Penelope: I want to note two things here, because my next question is about how you divide caregiving responsibilities; how you manage your everyday life. But first, I want to go back to something Poppy said, because IVF is something many couples go through — all the effort, the years, the failures. Still, it matters, because both of you mentioned that this joy you feel in describing parenthood might have a lot to do with how much you longed for it, how hard you tried for it. And of course, that’s not to say that other couples who have also tried and struggled don’t feel the same way once it finally happens, it can still be just as fulfilling.

Mina: Yes, exactly. 

Penelope: Right. So just noting that. You’ve both mentioned a few times that it’s significant that you’re two women. Mina, you made a great point earlier – in another episode of this series, we actually talked about care from the perspective of a dad, a husband, a male partner. And we discussed exactly that – how men can be more involved, and how much fairer the world would be if that were the case, even in heterosexual couples. But now, let’s get practical. Since right now, Mina, you’re on maternity leave and not working yet, how do you share caregiving duties in your everyday life? Who puts Alkis to sleep?

Mina: Oh no, no. That’s not even a question! We actually argue over who gets to put him to sleep, who gets to feed him, who gets to change him.

Penelope: Things I never argued about!

Poppy: Everything’s equal. But even before Alkis, things were equal. We’ve always been a team, a family, even before the baby. So it just carried over naturally once he arrived. I don’t even think of us as “two women” in that sense. And looking back now, I actually think that’s better – otherwise, it would sound like we’re excluding men completely. That’s not what we’re saying at all. We’re not saying, “All women should just get together and have children with each other.”

Mina: I’m saying it more in a stereotypical way.

Poppy: Honestly, when you become a parent and it’s something you truly want, isn’t it only natural that you take care of your child? What else would it mean? I work nights, sure, so what? Of course I’m tired in the morning, but I’ll still get up to change him, to wash him. And Mina’s tired too, because while I’m at work, she’s at home with the baby, worrying, maybe waking up during the night. So it all just balances out naturally. We share everything. The only thing I don’t really share  and that’s just because I enjoy it,  is cooking. I like doing that. But Mina does something else in return.

Mina: What do you mean? That you are the one who cooks for Alkis? 

Poppy: Not for Alkis, for us. We live in the house too. 

Mina: I think I completely agree with Poppy. Everything is shared equally. I can say no to things that don’t feel balanced or that I simply don’t enjoy doing — and sometimes Poppy prefers to take on something that I find difficult or just don’t want to do. What’s beautiful is that we share things out of choice, not obligation. It’s an equal partnership because we want it that way. And really, that’s how it should be.

Penelope: That’s exactly how it should be. But let me just point out that, in reality, it often isn’t for many reasons. Why? Because in heterosexual couples – and probably especially in heterosexual couples – gender roles still exist. There are these traditional gender expectations that say the male partner is the “provider,” to put it bluntly, while the woman, whether she works or not, ends up carrying a much larger share of the caregiving responsibilities.And that can take many forms and this leads to my question. I’ll give you a moment to think about it. This imbalance can happen regardless of whether the woman is employed or not, and it shows up in so many ways — for instance, having to take on a “second” or even a “third” shift after coming home from work. So my question is this: you two describe what sounds like an ideal situation 

Mina: It’s not ideal, not at all. 

Penelope: Good, then let’s talk about the not-so-ideal, because if I were a mom listening to you right now and not experiencing the same thing, I’d probably turn to my partner -Giannis, Maria, depending on who I’m with – and say, “We must be doing something wrong, love. What are they doing so right?

Mina: I’ll tell you, Penelope – in our case, something that makes a huge difference is that Poppy works in the afternoons and evenings. That means in the mornings, there are two of us taking care of our baby. And beyond the practical side of caregiving – which, of course, involves responsibility and exhaustion – there’s also joy. So we get to share not only the effort but also the happiness that comes with it. I think that’s important to note. And also, right now I’m not working – that’s definitely a big factor.

Pinelope: I’ll come back to that. 

Mina: I thought you might – and honestly, I’m a bit nervous about both the question and the moment itself! But yes, I think we’re speaking from the reality of our current situation as a family. Just to be clear, we’re not saying everyone should break up or that everyone should be in homosexual relationships.

Poppy: Absolutely not. Personally, I don’t agree with that at all.

Penelope: Great, let’s go there. 

Poppy: I completely disagree. I mean, Giannis or Maria, whoever you’ve got sitting across from you, since you mentioned those names, you’re wrong. Take responsibility. You have a child. I’ll be a bit blunt here: I understand if you’re tired, and sure, I can step in. But listen, this applies to everyone – to men, to heterosexual couples, even to men who actually do a lot for their kids. Because such men exist. Not everyone fits the same mold. Let’s not flatten everything. There are also women who don’t take part as much.

Penelopi: For sure, though they’re not the majority. And that’s not just based on experience, it’s backed by research. It’s numbers.

Poppy: Still, it is worth mentioning. 

Penelopi: We actually had a guest like that in a previous episode – Vasilis Tsolis, of course.

Poppy: Really? No way! So they do exist.

Penelope: We had to look for him, though. That’s the difference.

Poppy: Well, from my own circle, I know two.

Penelope: That was exactly my question, whether what you’re experiencing, either as a family with two moms or simply as a family, is something you also see reflected around you.

Poppy: I’d say that, fortunately, we do see families like that around us — families where the male partner or husband is really involved and genuinely willing to take part. Even if, in the end, it’s not a perfect 50-50 split, there’s still a real intention and effort to share things more equally. So yes, I’d say that in our circle, we do see examples like that.

 Mina: Yes, maybe it’s because we’re part of a more modern pattern.

Poppy: Maybe that’s why/That might be to blame too.

Penelope: And I think I’ll put “blame” in quotation marks here, because sometimes, -actually most of the time-  the people around us tend to share our views and values. They’re usually the ones who make up our closest network.

Poppy: I’ll tell you what –  the people I’m thinking of aren’t necessarily similar to us in terms of mindset. In my mind, I’m picturing more traditional Greek families. But even in those families, I see the male partner being really involved.

Penelope: What do you think is working well there, from what you observe?

Poppy: The couple really loves each other, you know? There’s mutual respect. For example, my friend respects that her husband worked a night shift until eight in the morning, so she takes on a bit more that day. And when he wakes up and feels rested, he says, “Okay, let me take over now.” And honestly, come on, is it really such a big deal for a man to hang up his wife’s underwear on the clothesline? I mean, seriously. It’s 2025!

Penelope: You don’t want to ask me that question.

Poppy: Right, I probably shouldn’t ask you.

Penelope: And I’ll tell you why,  because when we talk about how care and responsibilities are divided, yes, of course part of it depends on the couple. But it’s not only about the woman or the man saying “help me” or “support me” or “let’s share this.” That would make it sound like it’s just a personal issue  and it’s really not. It’s systemic, it’s social, and it’s deeply tied to the stereotypes and biases we all grow up with.

Mina: I’d even say it’s institutional, Penelope.

Penelope: Exactly. 

Mina: The fact that women are entitled to maternity leave, while fathers, only very recently, got 14 days off.

Penelope: From the two days it was when I gave birth.

Mina: So even institutionally, there’s still that gap. But I feel that society is moving forward.

Penelope: Really? That’s how you feel?

Mina: At least that’s what I sense from my surroundings. I see that new couples, new male partners, are much more involved and far less traditional. Poppy, do you feel the same, or do you have a different impression?

Poppy: I’d agree with you. You know, because we’re over 40, our married male friends grew up with roughly the same mindset as we did – like my mother, my brother, my aunt, my cousin, and so on. So they’re mostly the same. But I do see that things are changing. And you know why? Because they have to change. Women work now, they speak up, they assert themselves. And obviously, I’m talking about my own circle. I don’t live in a remote village in Xanthi. I know what I’m talking about. I’m not as romantic as I might sound, thinking everything is perfect, that all men help and everything’s great;  that’s not what I mean. I just see real change happening, you know?

Penelope: You see it. And that’s important. I’ll just add that usually, the network we hang out with doesn’t only reflect principles or values-  it’s also about the bubbles we live in. I call it living in bubbles. In English, they say, I’m preaching to the choir-  we hear what we want to hear, in a way.

Mina: Yes, that’s true, because I think we end up surrounding ourselves with a circle that feels like a safe space where everyone feels comfortable. It makes sense. Of course, you keep your radar up and see what’s happening outside of that bubble, but I agree with what you said, and I also think there’s a reason why things happen that way.

Penelope: What’s your bubble, then? Who are the people, friends, family, your community, not by name, of course, but who’ve played a role in your daily life? You both mentioned that it was a journey to get here. A journey you’re living in Greece, which, yes, has made many steps forward but still isn’t where it should be.

Poppy: By no means.

Penelope: I’ll say it, but you’ll explain it better. So what’s the network that’s supported you, and how important has that network been? That’s really what I want to understand.

Poppy: The truth is, the network we’ve built over the last twenty years that Mina and I have been together is very safe. So if we trace it from day one until now, it continues to grow stronger. We have a fair number of people around us, but we also have some who don’t want to hear about this at all. And that’s how it is; they’re from our very close circle. The point is, we are strong ourselves, and we keep what we want, we listen to everything, and from there, we try our best for our family. Our network is large.

Mina: Yes, we do have quite a few, that’s true.

Poppy: You know, we kind of got carried away talking to the audience here, but maybe I should just stop before I go further.

Mina: Go ahead, say it.

Poppy: No, okay,  but you say it too. Answer as well.

Mina: I’d say that throughout this whole journey, most of the people we encountered were on our side  or at least indifferent, which in reality translated to “okay, fine, and why are you telling me this?” I remember very clearly when we went to the doctor. I’ll mention here that we also faced the issue of “you’re two women, we can’t take responsibility for you.” We could probably do an entire podcast just about that. But this was before the law was passed, and it’s really important –  because technically, before the law, what we were doing would have been illegal.

Poppy: It was illegal. I would go along to sign, but I didn’t even sign anything . Mina had to sign a paper that said “single, unmarried woman.” I was right there with her. It was completely ridiculous.

Mina: Still, the doctors who were with us along the way, they were like “okay, fine, whatever.” But it matters to me that the doctor included Poppy in the cesarean. In other similar cases, a partner, spouse, or father might not even be allowed. And of course, the fact that she was allowed to hold the baby – those are really encouraging signs for me. Not for society at large, but for people. It gives me hope that there’s empathy around us, which is very important to me. Within my very close circle and this is Poppy’s circle too, my family plays a huge role. They’re supportive and present. That’s significant. And then there are people from our professional lives, from our circle of friends. We have many friends we’ve known for a long time, and we’ve all grown up together in a sense.

Penelope: What role does this supportive network play? How important is it to have a network like this, whether it’s small or large?

Poppy: I’ll speak from a professional perspective. Personally, my employer didn’t question that I would take two weeks off. I said, “Kostas, Mina is giving birth.” And he said, “Yeah, okay, fine, a month – that’s your right.” I told him, “I’m entitled to a month, I’m a mom,” and they said, “Yes, a month, no problem.” I got paid as usual, my benefits were fine, and they were supportive afterwards too –  hugs, kisses, everything was great. Our friends were all there, before and after, helping us as we raised our child. Everyone together;if I think back 20 years, a photo might show eight people, and now it’s suddenly sixteen.

Penelope: Which could have been fewer, but that’s what you meant earlier, Poppy — that not everyone around us is ready to hear about or understand our needs. And I’m saying this in a general sense.

Poppy: Also, our friends – our close circle – are straight couples with or without kids, or single women or men. We have gay friends too, but let’s not put labels on it. The people around us, who we’ve grown up with, I don’t know if “open” is the right word, but they’ve accepted our situation.

Mina: Honestly, what we all need is empathy. Just a little empathy in everything, especially when it comes to care. Even in a heterosexual couple, empathy matters. When someone next to you is exhausted, anxious, or completely overwhelmed, that should ring a bell. You can’t have the person beside you falling apart while you just go on living your own reality. It has to be a team effort, that’s what it means to share a life. There’s no other way.

Penelope: You mentioned earlier the doctor who said, “We can’t take you on”,  before the law passed, okay. What other, smaller or bigger barriers or stereotypes have you come across that really got to you?

Poppy: You know what? He’s still so little, so I’d say we haven’t really been that exposed yet.

Penelope: Right, that makes sense.

Poppy: But even if it does happen, we won’t allow it. Personally, I won’t allow anyone to upset or pressure me. I have this thing. How can I put it… I want what we did to not be anyone else’s concern. Just like I don’t care what anyone else does. If you’re a boy who wants to dress like a girl, or a girl who wants to shave her head, or a woman who wants to drive a truck, that’s your business. So, listen, don’t care about what I do either. That’s just how I see it, deep down.

Penelope: Mina?

Mina: For me, it wasn’t so much annoying as it was outrageous, like what I mentioned about the IVF center, to be completely honest. But then, when we went through the process of getting a passport for the baby… First, I should mention that we’re in the process of Poppy adopting the baby as the second parent. There’s a law now, but it still doesn’t fully recognize the partner as a parent. So at this moment, the baby has only one legal parent – me, because I gave birth – until the adoption process is complete.

Penelope: Which is a long process.

Mina: Yes, to finalize it takes almost three years. We’re six months in, and the social services’ investigation went perfectly. Now it’s up to the judges and our lawyer. Luckily, we have a very competent, kind lawyer, so we’re not worried. The law has passed, but unfortunately…

Poppy: The fact that the law passed has created a very different kind of attitude for you, I think.

Mina: The word is different. We’re now visible.

Penelope: And institutionally too.

Mina: It’s really important. So, I went through the process of getting a passport for Alkis — he was five months old at the time. I showed up as a single woman with a child. And the officer there, in a very central police department in Athens, kept insisting on asking me, “Who is the father?”

Poppy: We should mention it. It was in Metaxourgeio.

Mina: Yes, it doesn’t really matter, a very polite man, who was trying, in his own subtly intrusive way, to ask me who the father was…. In the end, I just said, “There is no father.” It didn’t feel like a safe space to explain the type of family we are, and that bothered me quite a bit. Long story short, he ended up advising me to go to City Hall and just give a “placeholder” name for the father –  a Giorgos, a Kostas, a Giannis – so that the passport wouldn’t say “father unknown.” I found it kind of funny at the time. But I’ll say this: right now, there’s a tiny baby, so maybe that’s why I could laugh about it. If the same thing happened when our child was five years old, I don’t think I’d find it funny at all. I felt uncomfortable and weird.

Penelope: Poppy said something very important earlier, that Alkis is still very little, just ten months old, and you haven’t really been exposed to that kind of situation yet. I truly hope, with all my heart, that you’ll have to face as few of those as possible. But as you said, when Alkis turns five, you might be dealing with that again. Let’s hope we’re all well and can see how things have evolved by then.

Mina: I believe that by then, things will have changed institutionally. For example, we were just looking at something related to schools, there was a form that said “mother’s name, father’s name.” I talked it over with Poppy, who saw it differently from me. She said, “Well, that’s obviously going to evolve – it’ll become Parent 1, Parent 2, or something like that. It doesn’t matter how it’s written.” And she said, “Okay, so what do we do now? We’re put in an awkward position – I will just cross it out and write mother’s name again”. So it’s really about how you choose to see things.

Penelope: And it’s also about how the other side – the schools, for example – keeps up with the times. Change is happening, but we need it to happen faster. Though, just to slightly dishearten you, I’ll share something that happened to me yesterday: I called a bank to cancel an appointment because I wasn’t feeling well. The appointment was to find out what I needed to do to add my underage child as a co-holder on my account.

Mina: Oh, do tell. We’re interested.

Poppy: Do you want to talk about it now? That’s for another podcast.

Penelope: So they told me: “Of course, I can see here that you have these accounts and you’re the legal representative for these two companies and so on… and what’s your husband’s name?” I said, “I don’t have a husband.” He said, “What do you mean?” I said, “I don’t have a husband.” And the answer was, “That’s not possible.”  I said, “Because I don’t have a husband? I mean, I’m just asking so that when I feel better and come in tomorrow or the day after, you can tell me what I need to bring because having a husband is definitely not one of them.”

What I mean is, this isn’t just an issue that affects the community; it’s a broader one. That person didn’t even know the basics to ask something like, “Are you divorced? Has your husband passed away? Anything?” No question at all. Just: “It’s not possible.” Completely out of touch. And that’s a matter of structure, of education. And we’re talking about a straight person.

Poppy: From personal experience, when we went to the town hall to get married, the people there were actually really chill about it. It was like someone had told them, “Just let them do their thing. It’ll be worse for us if we make a scene.” Because, honestly, we’ve started raising our voices too; there are so many activists and strong groups out there, one of them being Rainbow Families (Greece). It’s worth mentioning that because  they’ve done so much so that we can now be here, speaking openly, commenting on current events/affairs, being visible. And that makes me feel really good.

Mina: I have to say, whoever we’ve had to deal with, I’ve been pleasantly surprised. I’ll be honest. That doesn’t mean something bad won’t happen eventually. But, like Poppy said, it’s as if there’s been an unspoken memo: “Be careful,don’t mess this up and end up on TV.”

Penelope: That’s the sense I get, and it’s a good one, actually.

Poppy: Well, obviously we turn our backs and they say things, but we don’t care.

Penelope: Okay, fair enough. But when you actually care does matter. Because you might be – you know, we often say this in different contexts – like, I could say: “If someone makes a sexual remark at work, I’ll blow up, I’ll shut it down immediately.” But that can’t be the standard, whether I’m strong enough to handle it or not. People should just not make sexist jokes. They should just not be sexist. So it’s not only about whether I can deal with it or whether I have a strong personality.I remember talking once with a friend who’s a civil engineer – she’s on construction sites day and night. She said, “I go however I want – in boots, in a short skirt, whatever – and if someone says something, I’ll tell them off.” And we had this talk – like, okay, but because you’re 40+, empowered, confident – what about a young woman, just starting out, working hard to get that job after her studies (or even before finishing them)? If she doesn’t have that same toughness to say, “Excuse me?” – we can’t put the responsibility on her. That’s a social issue.

Mina: No. 

Penelope: That’s why I say it’s not just about strength of character. You said, “You two are strong, you don’t care, nothing bothers you” but it shouldn’t be happening in the first place.

Mina: Absolutely. I do appreciate, though, that even if there’s gossip behind our backs, people behave with a kind of discretion. I’ve really been impressed. And that man I mentioned earlier, the police officer, with all the stereotypes that come with that job, I found him kind of funny. He was trying so hard to be discreet, and yet, what he was suggesting wasn’t discreet at all. But yeah, I’m over 40, and I can handle those kinds of people now.

Penelope: Sure  and it’s not just about age. It depends on where you are in life, where you’re going, many things.

Mina: We’ll talk again in three years, when people at the beach start asking Alkis, “Where’s your dad?” or when he says, “I have two moms,” and everyone stares.

Poppy: People are learning. My niece, since she was very little, would go up the stairs and tell her friends: “My aunts live here,” and then, “My dad, mom, and I live here, and over there live my uncle and aunt.” Kids learn. The new generations are coming  fast. And even if I used to hide it for years, or now I don’t have great relations with my own family, that has nothing to do with what Alkis will choose to do. whether he’ll have kids with his husband one day, or whether my niece will decide to have a child on her own. They’re learning, and as parents, we’re here to encourage them.

Penelope: I think this is the most optimistic episode of this entire series, maybe even of the whole podcast, to be honest.

Poppy: Penelope, we are here to raise our children and teach them how to love and not who to love. 

Penelope: Okay, that’s what we say, but not everyone believes that, I’d say.

Mina: On the other hand, you know how in Greece we always use that “yes, but…” expression; there’s always a “but.” Anyway, we have to start somewhere, right? Each of us, from our own little circles.

Penelope: Absolutely! Right! From our bubbles. Exactly! Let me bring you back to reality for a second.

Mina: Hmm.

Penelope: Because, Mina, you’ll be going back – by the time this podcast is out, you might have already gone back.

Mina: I don’t really know how the schedule’s going.

Penelope: So, I wanted to ask:  how do you imagine your return to work?

Mina: Difficult. I’ll interrupt you to say that it is right away difficult.

Penelope: What worries you about it, and what would you like to be different this time, in a realistic framework, I mean?

Mina: What worries me is the lack of time. I can already see it, not just imagining it – from my past daily routine, from what I see around me. It’s a constant race, and what really bothers me is that time won’t be quality time. In an ideal world, I’d love to spend these first few years of my child’s life actually being present. So yes, I’m anxious about the lack of quality time and about not being fully there.

Penelope: Given that you will be returning to work and given that you will be returning to a job where you are an employee of a company, theoretically, let’s say that, legally at least, you have an eight-hour day and some time to get to work and some time to get back from work, so let’s put these practical facts down, what would you like to happen differently from what you know and from other women who have returned from maternity leave, in the same workplace or in others from friends, etc. What would you like to happen differently?

Mina: I’ll speak realistically.

Penelope: Realistically, okay.

Mina: Because my ideal scenario would be… for every company to have a space where…

Penelope: Go on, say it.

Poppy: Here, they actually do have that, Mina. Are you looking for a job? (laughs) They’re doing great work with that here.

Mina: My ideal scenario would be to work for a big company, one located in a shared space with other big companies – multinationals, for instance. And there could be a space for all the kids of those – I’ll say it – “poor”, tired moms and dads, let’s include the dads too – where childcare is available on-site. I mean, what could be more normal than that? I think the current system, at least in our country, doesn’t really help anyone, not any member of the family. So, realistically, I’d want a more flexible work arrangement; something that allows me to be more present, more “here.”

Penelope: And given that in the next two, three, maybe four months when you go back, that space won’t have been built yet, what’s the next, slightly less ideal but still flexible scenario that would help you?

Mina: You mean in terms of work, right?

Penelope: In terms of work, yes.

Mina: To ask for a more flexible schedule, to actually demand it, to prioritize this new situation I’m in. I can’t think of anything else more realistic. And beyond that, to create – if it exists – a support system that helps you feel a bit more at ease, even if you can’t always be physically present.

Penelope: Poppy, Mina’s going back to work; let’s say a 9-to-5 job.

Poppy: It’s not 9 to 5, guys, that’s the thing, because it’s an hour before, half an hour to get ready, an hour after to come back, a quarter to half an hour to calm your head down, it’s more than that.

Penelope: What worries you about this scenario, and what would you like to see happen?

Poppy: I would like Mina to spend more time with the child and with me. Fortunately for our family, I don’t work in the mornings at the moment, so yes, there is…

Penelope: One of the two parents will be there.

Poppy: Right, exactly. If there’s a gap – “oh no, what do we do now?” – we’ll find a way. But it’s really hard with daycare. Why do they close at 5 p.m.? What time is a parent supposed to leave work?

Penelope: Mmm.

Poppy: I mean, really. Those of you who’ve been parents longer, how did you manage? Did you have to… 

Mina: Like you said,  it’s a race.

Poppy: Yes, but you know, that’s not very humane.

Penelope: No, it’s not. In Greece, you depend on your support network.  You need a grandma or a grandpa.

Poppy: Yeah but that’s not right either; or you end up paying 30 euros to someone to help you out, and I mean, come on, we’re both salaried workers.

Mina: On the other hand, at this point, since we keep having this discussion with Poppy, how many hours could you leave a baby… 

Poppy: Yes

Mina:…at the nursery because you work 10 or 12 hours, could you leave it for 10?

Poppy: So what’s the proposal then? To work six-hour days?

Mina: To have more flexible work schedules for those first years, which actually happens in other countries.

Poppy: That’s true.

Mina: There’s this really nice initial period here that supports your new role, and then suddenly you’re thrown into the ocean and there’s nothing.

Poppy: Yes. 

Mina: There should be and I don’t mean only for women or only for men, whoever chooses a flexible work model for that first phase, let’s say the first three years – you’d know better, you’re the more experienced parent here.

Penelope: My child’s twelve now.

Poppy: I mean, I can’t work from home, I haven’t yet figured out how to send drinks from my house to table number two! 

Mina: Maybe we could use AI to come up with that idea? That’s right.

Penelope: And Business Development on WHEN podcast (Humoristically)!

Poppy: Working from home would be great, at least some days, without the anxiety of asking for it. Because you know, in previous cases, most women – especially salaried women – are anxious about returning to work because they feel different. It sounds a bit strange, doesn’t it? But it’s not something men experience.

Mina: Very nice. (irony?)

Penelope: You’re proving my point.

Mina: Υeah, that doesn’t apply to fathers. For a father, it’s like:  he’s done his “job,” he’s had the baby, and then he can just go right back to his old life. Women, on the other hand – Poppy, let me add – feel anxious because they’re not the same anymore. Even if we want to believe otherwise, you suddenly become a different person. You’ve gone through a whole other process, which takes time both physically and mentally, in my view and based on my own experience. Yes, I am a different person, I am still the person I was before, I’m in a transitional phase, but I will find myself again along the way; it just doesn’t happen that quickly, that’s how I feel.

Penelope: And let me say here, as a more experienced parent, that it is not necessary; the point is not to find me again, because I am not the same person, as you yourself said. I have acquired other skills, I may have acquired other priorities, but returning to my job may not be compulsory work. This is now a double interpretation, meaning that I may like my job, I may want to return to my job, I may want to evolve, do something else, learn more. It’s not just that “oh, now I’m going back,” it’s not like that for everyone, it’s not like that for everyone. However, even if it’s not like that for me, that is, I want to return to work, I have a difference in relation to my male colleagues, it’s not the same.

Poppy: Oh, absolutely. No question about it.

Mina: I was actually talking about this with a friend just yesterday, totally by coincidence, who told me that ” let me tell you something,” – she also works in a large advertising agency for a multinational group,-  “here, men don’t take parental leave, mothers run around doing everything because the child has to go to the doctor, because they have to go to the school party, because, because, because… ” Both parents are entitled to parental leave, but it is women who do all the running around. I don’t know if this is a stereotype, I don’t know how deep the roots of what we are discussing are.

Penelope: Oh, it’s deeply rooted. We’ve actually done research on that exact issue, I mention it in every episode, so I won’t say more here. Just go read it on our website. It’s about how men don’t take the parental leave they’re entitled to and how that affects the unequal distribution of care responsibilities.And since we’ve reached this point, we’ve gone from the ideal to what’s really happening out there, I’ll ask you both the same final question: if you could rewrite one “rule” about care – interpret “rule” however you like – which one would you rewrite, and how?

Poppy: For me, there’s just one rule; I said it at the start of the podcast: equality in everything we do to raise our child.

Penelope: Together. 

Poppy: Together, exactly.

Penelope: Mina? 

Mina: Equal sharing. The starting point is simply that we both see ourselves as parents, you’re a parent, full stop. It shouldn’t need any extra definition. So yes, my rule would have no modifiers. Just equal sharing; of roles, responsibilities, and the way you care for the person you’ve chosen to create and raise together.

Poppy: And look… that applies whether the couple stays together or not.

Penelope: That’s another podcast episode!

Poppy: Oh really? When can I come back?

Penelope: I’ll join too!

Mina: In three years, we said; when Alkis turns three.

Poppy: That’s right. I hope we’re still together.

Mina: Then we’ll be on two podcasts! (laughs)

Penelope: Mina and Poppy, thank you so, so, so much for the conversation and the company. See you in three years!

Poppy: Thank you.

Mina: This felt like therapy today. See you in three years!

Conclusion: What did you think of what we shared today with Poppy and Mina, and what else do you think CAREdiZo could potentially create that would bring us one or more steps closer to equality, both inside and outside of work? We are always here to read and listen to your suggestions, comments, and ideas, so you can follow us on social media, send us an email, leave us a review on Spotify, and, of course, come and meet us at WHEN Hub and let’s continue the discussion so that we can make WHEN and CAREdiZo even better for everyone.

Introduction: Welcome to the new season of WHEN On Topic. I’m Stella Kasdagli, and I’m back with you to discuss women’s professional and economic empowerment and equality at work. Sometimes even outside of it. This season of our podcast is dedicated to caregiving responsibilities and their equal distribution, and it comes to you thanks to CAREdiZo. What is “CAREdiZo?” It’s a new project we’re involved in as part of the European Commission’s “CERV” programme, which aims to bridge the gender gap in caring responsibilities by promoting equality practices at home, in micro businesses, and small civil society organizations with up to ten employees. This project promotes family-friendly policies, encourages men to participate in caregiving, and highlights the value of caregiving across society, which is what we have been aspiring to for so long. Its activities include research, co-creation workshops, training programmes, and the development of digital tools, such as an educational game, for example, but also podcasts to fight stereotypes and promote equality. Our partners are based in Cyprus, Lithuania, and Bulgaria and are currently creating their own podcasts, which you might have the chance to explore soon.

Stella: In this episode of When On Topic, we are turning our attention to the issue of care, not so much about children this time, but for the adult members in our families who, at some point and for any reason, may need our care, both practical and beyond: parents, older relatives, people living with illness, and of course, people with disabilities. With us today is a man who recently took on such a role in his own life, and together we’ll talk about whether caregiving carries a gendered dimension, how it affects not only our professional lives but also our personal ones, and how we can effectively support those entering this stage of life – as friends, as relatives, as employers, and as managers. Michalis Bozos is joining us today, a Country Manager at a multinational company working in the field of cybersecurity. I’ll let him tell us himself how he came to be part of today’s episode. Michalis? 

Michalis: Good morning Stella. I found myself in this situation due to my mother’s health conditions. I went through a rather lengthy caregiving process that lasted about two to three years, with the last two years being much more intense than the previous ones. The whole care she needed stretched over for approximately twelve years. Things gradually got worse every passing year, reaching their peak in those final two years. At that point, it truly required much closer attention and a greater commitment of my time to help her manage the challenges she was facing. 

Stella: Tell us a bit about the broader context. Do you have children? Do you have siblings?

Michalis: Yes, I have a sister, one year older than me, and we share the same concerns when it comes to our parent’s health. At the same time, I have two children – a 17 – year – old son and a 12 – year – old daughter—and my partner, with whom I live and share my life. And within all of that, I have a job that is quite demanding. 

Stella: That’s what it sounds like.

Michalis: First of all, having to manage four different countries and the people in each one of them, all together it created a strong mix of demands on my time.

Stella: Michalis, let me take a step back and ask you: when you were growing up, if you think back to your childhood, what were the role models or care models that you had around you? In other words, when you found yourself in this situation, based on what stimuli and what memories you were able to see yourself in the role of caregiver for your parent? 

Michalis: Look, that’s an interesting point, because if I go back to the family issues my parents had to deal with, my father’s father – so my grandfather on that side- had died before my father even knew him, so I have no memory of him. My grandmother, also on my father’s side, passed away when I was ten. I don’t remember much, other than that my father would go to the hospital several times a day, and sometimes my grandmother was at home in very poor condition. 

Stella: That’s also a caregiving memory as well. 

Michalis: Very vague indeed, nothing very concrete. What I recall more from my mother’s side, from her parents, was first of all the experience with my grandfather, who spent four years bedridden with a severe case of Alzheimer’s. It began almost like a joke and ended as a tragedy. As I think is often the case with Alzheimer’s: at first you forget something and everyone laughs, and then, in a very short time, you find yourself confined to a bed, unable to do anything. He was otherwise very strong physically, which kept him alive much longer. That story, of course, was carried far more by my grandmother than by my mother. My grandmother was utterly dedicated—a woman on a mission, as they say—to keeping my grandfather alive for as long as needed, or as long as possible, wanting to have him by her side. After my grandfather died, my grandmother passed away very quickly. Within a year, we barely had time to realize what had happened.

Stella: That mission was clearly very important to her. 

Michalis: Yes. She became ill after a routine heart operation. She never recovered and passed away soon after. It wasn’t really a situation that required long-term care – she went into the hospital once, then again a second time, and then she was gone. It all happened very fast. What I can tell you, though – and it left a mark on me, even if it strays a bit from the subject of caregiving itself – is that she passed away in my arms. As, in the end, so did my mother after the period of intensive care we’ll be talking about.

Stella: I don’t think that strays from the subject at all, because, you know, the moment we die is also a stage of life, and one in which care is very much needed. So I think what you describe is very relevant. I’ll come back later to the distinction you made between your father’s side and your mother’s side – which may reflect gender roles, or it may simply be coincidence. But for now, I’d like to move to the more recent past. How did you experience this extended period of caregiving in relation, first of all, to your professional life – which, as we said, is demanding, and I imagine also rewarding, not something you do just because you have to?

Michalis: I’ll tell you. I believe I was – and still am – fortunate in my work environment, because it gives me the flexibility to manage such situations. Thanks to the multinational nature and structure of the company, I don’t really face obstacles in arranging my own schedule. I set my own program, I manage my own responsibilities. Of course, that also came with a very human response from the people I approached in the company to whom I explained my situation, the possibility that I might be absent from some daily activities, and they showed great concern and were very generous in giving me all the time I needed. I missed out on important things – corporate obligations, business trips, relationships with clients and partners, and many activities. But beyond the way the company itself handled my situation, I also had a team that supports the day-to-day work and I’m proud of this team which was built in such a way that it functions autonomously, without needing me to be present all the time. That gave me the flexibility I needed. 

Stella: Do you think that flexibility was mainly due to company policies and culture, or was it also related to your position? 

Michalis: Both. That is, being a general manager comes with many responsibilities and obligations, but also a great deal of freedom. If, over time, you build your team in a way that trust develops and those freedoms are in place, then those teams can operate completely on their own. I think that’s very important. In my view, any manager should be able to organize their team so it functions independently without them. If there’s a constant need for the director or manager to be present, then something isn’t right – or at least that’s how I see it, given my own mindset about work. So yes, it was both the company’s policies and my position, as well as the structure of the teams in each country, that allowed me the flexibility I really needed.

Stella: Do you feel that other members of your team could have had the same flexibility? And if not, what would you do differently as a manager to ensure that others, without your position, could also benefit from similar support from the company they work for?

Michalis: Everyone can have that flexibility, because we can create a plan that covers each other’s gaps. We try to avoid creating exclusive dependencies.Although we are a small team, – especially in Greece there are, let’s say, twelve people – each person has a specific role to play. On the other hand, a colleague recently found himself in a similar situation. Unfortunately, his father passed away just this past Saturday. He had been absent for two months. Essentially absent, although he did show up occasionally at the office. I believe he took, and is still taking, all the time he needs to recover, which is challenging. Because it’s not just the period of care, but also the time after that, the time you need for yourself afterward. Even during the caregiving period, he had all the freedom he really needed. Though in a slightly different way from mine, of course, because at some point, there was a conversation that went like this: “You know what, you’ve been away for quite a while, you should probably take some proper leave for the time you’ve been away,” which I didn’t do. 

Stella: Yes. Do you feel that your own experience informed how you acted as a manager in this case? 

Michalis:  Definitely. First of all, it gave me both experience and sensitivity. Experience to understand what someone going through such a situation really needs – how sleepless they might be, the worries they carry, trips to the hospital, waiting for calls, doing everything required for the person they’re caring for. And sensitivity for their family – the children, partner, spouse, anyone connected to them. Which, from experience, I understood what needs to be done. Beyond that, the sensitivity that I developed through my own experience, I think, made me a bit more empathetic toward these situations. Even so, I believe that even without this experience, I would have approached it in roughly the same way. It’s a matter of character.

Stella: You mentioned the rest of the family, which was going to be my next question. We talk about balancing caregiving and work, but caregiving occurs in different areas of our lives – our parents, our children, our relationships, and ourselves. How did you experience the tension, the imbalance, and the competing needs among these different areas in your own case?

Michalis: Look, there are two things that come to mind spontaneously. One is the time you spend caring for someone – and that time is inevitably taken from everything else. These include work, which we discussed earlier, but also your family and children, your friendships, and everything else that surrounds us. I think that I became quite antisocial during that period, and I don’t think it could have been any other way. In other words, you don’t have time to do other things. I might not have had time to see my children during the day, or my partner. Relationships start to feel a bit transactional: “Do this,” “Do that,” “I’ll do this,” “You’ll do that.” It’s not beautiful; it’s a bit mechanical. But I felt that I always had someone, my partner, who would support me whatever decision I made about how to spend my time and energy. I don’t have exactly the same expectations from my underage children, but I felt they were very understanding and resilient, realizing that dad was away from home. Dad didn’t sleep at home today, nor tomorrow, nor the day after.

Stella: Not at all.

Michalis: Not at all. And he may be nervous at the moment because he’s suffering from insomnia, or he may be emotionally charged with countless things. In other words, the fact that they might come home from school and see me crying on the balcony, for example, was not easy for them, but they showed considerable resilience. I feel that my partner did the same, choosing her own path. It was a conscious path that she chose herself, maintaining some distance from my drama. Because, at the end of the day, someone had to be more resilient in the situation we were living in. And yes, my family is my father, who remains my father, but my family now is my children and my partner. So that’s where I want to put the most emphasis in my life going forward.

 Stella: Overall, what do you feel this process, with all its challenges and burdens, has given you? What did it teach you, what did you gain, and how did it enrich you?

Michalis: I was enriched, but also got hurt. Many things happened. Look, for me,  after an intensive period of caregiving, there was also loss- which isn’t always the case. That is, someone might go through a period of intense care and then life continues normally. For me, loss came too. That weighs on you alongside the caregiving process. I can’t say I’ve fully processed it – it’s all very recent – but what I felt was that, by taking charge of many things, resolving situations, facing momentary decisions or decisions that needed to be made for someone else’s life, it gave me a sense of strength: that I can function under difficult circumstances and difficult moments. A clear example was last summer.

Stella: These things usually happen in the summer..

Michalis: Usually, yes. All these difficult events happened in the summer because, as I said, after 12 years of medical problems, which had become much more intense in the last 2-3 years, the turning points were in the summer. Even illnesses usually break out at night.  These are awkward moments that you have to manage.  For me, it was summers. One surgery, one metastasis, something new each time. So last summer we found ourselves in the most difficult situation of the whole journey. The summer journey, because then came an even more difficult period when decisions had to be made quickly. Because, as selfish as it may sound, we also have our families and had already planned our summer vacations, as we mentioned before. And somehow all this had to… 

Stella: Let the rest of your family work as well. 

Michalis: For it to work, yes. So, within a very short period of time, all the things that had to be done were done. Surgeries, treatments, finding someone at home for 24-hour care. Which is difficult, right? I mean, anyone who is trying right now to find home care for their loved ones – whether that’s for babysitting or for parent-sitting – I think it’s especially hard. I was lucky in that as well. I found a lady who bonded very much with the family, with my father and mother, and helped a lot. She was really a gem, found by chance, through a simple, random search. So, during a very intense period when everything had to be taken care of, in the end, everything was taken care of. And somehow, I felt like I functioned a bit like a project manager, let’s say, putting aside a lot of the emotional aspects at the moments when things had to get done. But afterward, you can’t really hide those feelings. At some point, they overwhelm you, and you say: well, at least I managed. I went on my vacation, and I took care of my mother too.

Stella: That’s important, in order to be able to manage the things that come up. 

Michalis: Yes, because I think that you also need a bit of time. Everyone who goes through this needs to be able to take their time, to recharge their batteries, to refill their energy so they can carry on. Because when you’re in the red zone for a long time, I think that’s when you can hit a dangerous point: you can collapse yourself.

Stella: I’ll hold onto what you said as the starting point for my next question, which is this: in reality nobody prepares us for this phase of caregiving- we tend to know more about parenthood, but much less about caring for the adult members of our family who will eventually need care. So, what advice would you give to a friend of yours (male in this question), an acquaintance – and I’m intentionally using the masculine here- who comes to you and says: “My parents have started having difficulties,” and you realize he’s entering this stage where greater care on his part will be required. What would you share, both practically and emotionally, perhaps?

Michalis: Emotionally speaking, the cliché that you “have to be strong” does turn out to be true. Once you step onto this path, you start approaching things more like tasks to be managed, as I mentioned earlier. You almost have to see it that way – more practically, even a bit coldly- reminding yourself, “I’m doing this to help,” and setting aside some of the emotional weight so you can function better.

I didn’t ask for psychological support during that period. I tried it afterwards, but ended up rejecting it. That’s actually something I’d strongly encourage anyone in a similar situation to seek out, and I think it was a mistake on my part not to stick with it. Talking things through, getting what’s inside you out, and maybe receiving some guidance can make a big difference.

As a friendly piece of advice, I’d say: keep your mind clear, get as much sleep as you can, and take whatever moments of rest are available. When you have the chance to be calm, be calm. When you have the chance to feel happy, let yourself be happy. Don’t let the process – whether it drags on or ends up being shorter – cast a shadow of gloom over everything.

Stella: In everything. 

Michalis: I believe you need to take everything life brings, because it’s all part of life. Looking after your parents, caring for someone who depends on you – that’s also part of life. On the practical side, though, I think the whole process does require some outside help. I don’t know who has siblings and who doesn’t, but I was fortunate to have my sister, who lives close to my parents and could also help, as much as she was able. So I can’t say I took it all on myself. I didn’t carry that whole weight alone. And my father was there too. Some decisions were made together, and it was a shared effort.

 Stella: If that’s not the case, then you definitely need some other kind of support network. 

Michalis: And even then, we always need to keep in mind something – at least this is how it was for me with my mother: I was her child, and she was my mother. I’m not a nurse, not a caregiver, not a professional in that field – and I wouldn’t want to be either. I have my own professional and personal life. What we had was the mother–child relationship, and it’s good for it to remain that way. The practical aspects of care are best handled by people who are trained for it.

Stella: If that’s afffordable. 

Michalis: Yes, if that’s possible, of course. Whether that means a doctor, a nurse, home care, or something else. There are people who are specialists in this. But of course, another issue comes up: the cost.

Stella: Yes, that’s why I said “if it’s possible.” Because for many people, that’s not necessarily an option.

Michalis: Right. And the cost is high. So another piece of advice I’d give to someone who sees this stage coming is to be a little proactive and start looking into it earlier than strictly necessary. Because once the need is really there, you’ll end up doing what I did. Making rushed decisions and grabbing the first opportunity that comes along, regardless of the cost. In that moment of need, you may even end up paying more.

Stella: That’s important. 

Michalis: Yes, because the longer a situation like this lasts, the more it can weigh heavily on a family and its budget. And it’s not something the state helps with – at least not the Greek state.

Stella: Some states do. 

Michalis: Yes, that’s why I am saying this. The Greek state at least doesn’t provide any support, it doesn’t recognize this need. Or at least, from what I looked into, I didn’t find any such option. Of course, maybe someone listening could say, “No, there is this program you can use, or that policy you can take advantage of.” I didn’t see anything like that. These were expenses I had to shoulder together with my family.

Stella: I wοuld like to pause here, because this brings us to the distinction between formal, professional care and the informal care that happens within families. And that leads me to my final question. It’s not a coincidence that we asked a man to join us today. You’ve mentioned your mother, who cared for her parents; your grandmother, who cared for her husband; and the woman who looked after your own mother when she needed it. We know there is a gendered dimension of care. We know that both formal and informal care are most often carried out by women. That might be starting to shift in recent years, but I’d like to hear from your own experience: how do you see people approaching this responsibility – depending on their gender and other factors – and how does society’s expectations differ for men and women when they find themselves in a caregiving role? From your perspective, or from your sister’s, or even your partner’s if she faced a similar need in her own family, would gender play a role?

Michalis: I’m not entirely sure this is strictly a gender issue. There is definitely a part of it that is gendered, especially when it comes to paid care by professionals. And in those cases, it’s overwhelmingly women who take on the role. I actually think they’re at a disadvantage in some ways. Τhey don’t necessarily have the physical strength or stamina to manage the demands of care. But for some reason, it seems to be seen almost exclusively as women’s work: the woman who looks after the grandfather, the woman who babysits the baby, the woman who provides support. We rarely hear of men taking on those roles. That, I think, is a whole different conversation – one that could fill an entire episode on its own. I can’t say exactly where the roots of it lie. When it comes to childcare, it ties into sensitive issues like the phallic issue, let’s say, and the fear that can arise simply from a man being present with children. I think this is a big issue, something we all carry in the back of our minds. We tend to trust a woman more easily than a man. When it comes to elder care, though, I honestly don’t know why that is. From my own experience – since you mentioned my mother caring for her parents or my grandmother looking after my grandfather – I think it often comes down to whose problem it is in the end. When my grandmother on my father’s side got sick, it was my father who took on most of the caregiving. My mother was focused on us. My memories are a bit blurry, since I was quite young, but I clearly remember my father rushing to hospitals, dealing with everything related to my grandmother’s health.

Stella: Did he have siblings? 

Michalis: Three brothers. 

Stella: So, by necessity.

Michalis: I don’t know if it was out of necessity, but yes, there were three brothers, and my father was the one who took on the care. Later, when my mother’s parents became ill, she was the one who cared for them. I think it comes down to that: whose responsibility it  seems to be. In other words,  I cared for my mother. If my partner’s mother were to fall ill or need support, it would probably be my partner who would step in. So, I don’t know if it’s always as gendered as we think. At least in my circle, and in the cases I’ve seen with friends, I haven’t observed a stark difference based purely on gender. It seems to depend more on whose side of the family the issue belongs to. Because let’s be honest: health problems or care needs in a family aren’t automatically shared problems. They usually fall on the person closest to the one in need. So I’d say it has more to do with that.

Stella: Blood ties definitely play a role, and so do family dynamics. But I’d add a footnote here: a family’s awareness and commitment to gender equality makes a big difference. In many of the examples you gave, women aren’t really given a choice – they simply take on one kind of care or another. For instance, “I won’t care for my husband’s parents, that’s his role, but I’ll still be responsible for the children at the same time.” It’s not that she says, “I’ll focus on my career or my personal life instead.” From what you’ve described, it sounds like in your case too, if your partner had to care for her parents, you would probably take on more responsibility for the children. But in another family, one that’s less conscious about equality, the man might simply continue his job and his daily routine as usual, and the children would end up with a grandmother or a paid carer.

Michalis: Or, in those situations, the woman ends up reaching a point of nervous  or complete breakdown because she’s stretched to the limit.

Stella: Exactly.

Michalis: She’s looking after the person in need of care while she is still doing all the things she was traditionally and conservatively expected to do in the family: cooking, cleaning, and preparing the kids for school. If those tasks fall solely on her shoulders, then yes, I’d say we have a serious problem.

Stella: Michalis, thank you so much for everything you’ve shared.

Michalis: Thank you too. All the best. 

Conclusion: What did you think of what we shared today with Michalis, and what else do you think CAREdiZo could potentially create that would bring us one or more steps closer to equality, both inside and outside of work? We are always here to read and listen to your suggestions, comments, and ideas, so you can follow us on social media, send us an email, leave us a review on Spotify, and, of course, come and meet us at WHEN Hub and let’s continue the discussion so that we can make WHEN and CAREdiZo even better for everyone.

Introduction: Welcome to the new season of When On Topic. I’m Pinelopi Theodorakakou, and  welcome to yet another discussion about women’s professional and economic empowerment and equality at work and sometimes even outside it. This season of podcast episodes  is dedicated to the responsibilities of care provision and their equal distribution and is made possible thanks to CAREdiZO. What is CAREdiZO? It is a new project in which we participate within the framework of the program “CERV” of the European Commission, which aims at bridging the gender gap in the responsibilities of care provision, through the intention of equality practices at home, in very small enterprises, and small civil society organizations employing up to ten people. The project supports family-friendly policies, encourages male family members to participate in the care provision, and highlights the value of care within society at large, which is precisely what we have stood up for for so long. Its activities include research, co-creation workshops, training programs, and the development of digital tools, such as educational games and podcasts, to combat stereotypes and promote equality. Our partners, from Cyprus, Lithuania, and Bulgaria, are currently creating their own podcasts, which you will be able to listen to shortly.  In this episode, we are joined by  Vassilis Tsolis,  a technology consultant and a working dad who daily tries to truly share- a key word – the responsibilities of care provision at home and break the stereotypes which still weigh on fatherhood. We will discuss the usual comments he hears, the reactions of those around him, the obstacles he encounters, and the small or large changes he would like to see in the future, leading to a fairer, more companionable, and humane form of parenthood.

Pinelopi: Good evening, Vassilis.

Vassilis: Good evening, and thank you very much for inviting me.  I am very glad that I’m going to talk about such a personal subject, which is very close to me.

Pinelopi: We are also very glad that you have accepted this invitation. To begin, please tell us a few things about yourself. Who are you, what do you do, and how old are your care responsibilities?

Vassilis: Well. First of all, let me tell you a few things about myself.  I’m a civil engineer who has studied law but who has also worked with artificial intelligence for the last ten years. I have recently become a consultant in companies involved with technology in one way or another. It may concern sales, product development, or various other things. This means that I can be at home quite a bit, and this significantly contributes to what has been happening over the last eight months, since the birth of Cleo.

Pinelopi: Congratulations!

Vassilis: Thank you.

Pinelopi: First of all, let me say that you are the second man invited to speak on our podcasts. I may be mistaken. You are a man, and you are involved in technology, so you face two stereotypes. But, you accepted our invitation to come here and talk about the things you do to break the stereotypes.

Vassilis: Yes. But I think it is an ongoing effort. It’s not something binary. It requires a daily effort.

Pinelopi: You didn’t decide one day and say, “We are going to start breaking stereotypes as a family”.

Vassilis: And it’s defined differently every day.

Pinelopi: Very well. We are going to discuss that. I place an asterisk here. My email invitation to participate in the podcast read as follows: “We would very much like to interview a working dad who is looking for solutions, is involved, and tries to do things a little differently.” And we thought of you. What do you see yourself doing differently from the stereotypical father role we often see around us, which we see as well?

Vassilis: I think part of it is time management. Secondly, I think what counts is the intention to contribute equally to the effort of raising a child. I think that instead of assuming the role of fathers as auxiliary, behind and a little on the side, helping only here and there, we should try daily to be there and be truly present. 

Pinelopi: You have said three words I love. The first is flexibility because you mentioned that your job allows you to be there. I connect it to the second phrase, therefore, time management, but there is also the part of intention you mentioned, which you truly want to be present, in a way that is not auxiliary but essential. So I recapitulate because it’s nice to keep small keywords which can help some other dads or future dads who are listening to us. I want to ask you, though, at this point if you had imagined your life as a dad before you became a father. And while we were waiting for you, I was describing the theme of the episode with our sound engineer, Dimitris Kokovidis, and I asked him,, “Dimitris, as a man, what would you  like to ask Vassilis?” and he gave me a very nice question. How much were you influenced by your memories, and with what stereotypes did you have to deal with from your own past as a child?

Vassilis: What impressed me the most was that when Cleo was born, we brought her to see her grandparents and their friends. And I noticed that my own father did not, let us say, know how to hold Cleo, and I essentially started a conversation with him. What I noticed the most was his guilt, that he hadn’t spent time or effort to be present in raising his children, myself included. Therefore, that was what impressed me very much. And I was thinking. Well, what does that mean from now on? Turn this around? I don’t think I have a concrete answer; I don’t have a recipe. I invent it on a daily basis. What I think, though, is that it is important to be present in the small as well as in the big things, let’s say. Changing a diaper is no big deal. Playing with the baby, also, is something which gives you energy, but is also very beautiful when it happens.

Pinelopi: But I have to say, she also drains your energy.

Vassilis: Well, that’s for sure. And energy and sleep. 

Pinelopi: So, what are the big ones? The small ones, say, are the change of diapers, playing -ok- and others that may be mentioned as we go along. What are the big ones, Vassilis? Because I feel that these — and from what I see around me — are the easy ones, and they are the ones that may possibly lead us to a more modern trap which is,  you know, I’m there for those, so I don’t have to… What? I don’t know. 

Vassilis: I think, now, for a 7-8-month-old child, the sense of security  for the child is something both parents must make an effort to create. So, I think, for such a young kid, this is the most important: for Cleo to feel safe, at all times. 

Pinelopi: With whichever of the two she happens to be with.

Vassilis: Exactly, yes. 

Pinelopi:  There’s something you’ve said in this short conversation so far, you’ve brought something up 2-3 times that is very important to emphasize, I think: the daily effort, the daily negotiation. That it’s all about daily effort and daily negotiation. And, putting that word in, I wanted to ask you if there’s something that has come naturally to you and your partner — that, you know, I do this, you do that— or if it’s something you’ve had to negotiate between you both again along the way. Because, you know, sometimes, when we have this conversation with dads who we know are there equally, there’s an embellishment concerning the situation between partners, let’s say. 

Vassilis: Yes. 

Pinelopi: He is laughing, if you must know. For those of you who are listening to the episode, he is secretly laughing.

Vassilis: The truth is that as Cleo is growing up, the things we need to do change. And that changes every week. So the negotiation with my partner is ongoing. In other words, what each of us does changes quite a bit. I mean, at first I may have been very busy with the kitchen — and I was completely in charge of it.  Then that changed; it has been redefined. And, of course, it is also a balance between that and work. And what I want to say is that I’m grateful to have this opportunity to be at home as well. And, secondly, that I can also set my own working hours, not completely, not 100%, but I can set them myself. 

Pinelopi: I am going to play devil’s advocate here because I know that your partner is also working. If it’s a day that’s very important for both of you — a very important appointment, a trip maybe — I don’t know if that has ever happened. How do you manage this negotiation?

Vassilis: I think it’s after a lot of discussion. I mean, my partner thought of going on a business trip a few months ago. And this was for a business meeting. And we thought it through, how the idea of her being away three days worked. And I would be here with friends or a nanny or some family member. And essentially, when we thought it through, the program couldn’t work.  But, we decided that I would go along too with some friends. And so we did a nice three-day, four-day babysitting — three or four people who were beside my partner to practically help her make this trip, the business trip, that she wanted. 

Pinelopi: That’s nice. So, discuss and create possibly out-of-the-box solutions. 

Vassilis: Yes, yes.

Pinelopi: If you have the flexibility to do that because it’s very important to say this. And I imagine that you have people in your environment who don’t have the flexibility to do that. So, I don’t know if you can share an experience where you felt that you would have needed a little more support from your work environment.  Perhaps not because you somehow define it yourself. But, if you had, of course, please share it. But you have such experiences from your friends — and I’m using the male gender very specifically — from men who are dads and theirwants and needs. For it is not only if I have the will; it is if I need to, as a parent, to have an active participation in the upbringing and care of my children. And I bang my head against a wall. I don’t have support. 

Vassilis:  First of all, let me say that we’ve been lucky so far. Because, for example, this trip was during the weekend, so we could organize our time better. But, if I think about it, what I see both from friends and colleagues and in my social environment is that there’s a missing institutional part for dads and fathers out there. That is, if you can organize your own schedule, it is much easier. But, if you look at it in terms of labor rights as well as opportunities, the chance to get, let’s say, three or four weeks of leave — that is, I’ve taken three weeks off and then for two weeks I almost didn’t work at all – I know very well that this is not the case for most people. And so, this is a dialogue that needs to take place. Because, yes, there’s goodwill, and I assume a lot of dads out there want to feel that initial weeks after birth experience — which is very important, and besides, it’s very difficult for moms. It’s exhausting. 

Pinelopi: And with lack of sleep. Yes, that’s what I was about to say now. 

Vassilis: So, it’s important that these people are given the opportunity to be present. And I understand that this institutionally, if they discuss this with an employer, should depend on the goodwill of the employer, not that he has the working right. 

Pinelopi: I’m listening to what you’re saying. There are care leaves, and there are parenting leaves, which dads can take too. Nevertheless, my question is — and it comes from research carried out by WHEN, but I’ll ask for you to answer too here — even if it was easier for dads to get it too. If there were the corresponding weeks or corresponding leaves available, would they take them? Would you take them?

Vassilis: I think this is completely a personal game, first of all. I mean, once you have the opportunity to take the time, it’s two things: whether you’re going to get, practically, the leave, and, even if you do, what you’re going to do with that leave. 

Pinelopi: Exactly. Because leaves exist, but also from our own research, it has emerged that dads don’t take them. And they don’t take them for specific reasons. One is the stereotype concerning care; they’re afraid that their status at work will diminish. But, and even when they take them,when you take them,  I have you here as a representative of the male sex beside me, not against me, you don’t utilize them in the same way. I mean, it can be, you know, from the feeling of privilege “perfect, I was given leave from my job” — say you were an employee at a tech company — “I was given leave from my job, for raising my child, let’s say, and basically I is work on my side project.” So, I want your comment on that. You also used the phrase “fine, but there is a chance that they will get the leave, but how do they use it?” Is it truly for them to be actively involved in the care and upbringing of the child, or not? 

Vassilis: It’s a matter of an overall culture, I think. Which, if you think about it, I haven’t been with other moms, dads, who are organized, and, essentially, we’re talking about all of that. I mean, I want to say that, even now, I’m operating as a unit. There’s nothing out there where I can exchange views, ideas, and methodologies — how best to do that. 

Pinelopi: And more collectively, perhaps.

Vassilis: Of course, yes. It’s very important. In any case, I think that raising a child very much includes the definition of collectivity. That is, the concept of collectivity is a game between both parents and the social circle in which a child lives. 

Pinelopi: And I feel that this is not only true for children. Care, that is, includes collectivity by definition. Whether it is the responsibility of caring for a child, or the responsibility of caring for a sick parent, or the care of another relative.  The care, even if I undertake it on my own,as a mom, daughter, partner, sister, I need, and we’ve discussed it in another episode of this series, someone to take care of me as well. So, care has a sort of collectivity, indeed. And, because you said that it has a bit to do with the culture around us, what is the most frequent comment, reaction, or look that you encounter — outside your own “bubble”, those who love you and who you love and they know who you are and what you do, as a family as well? So what’s the most common comment when you say, “I, you know, I’m not a babysitter, I’m a dad — I’m not there to help, I’m there to be actively involved”? 

Vassilis: The comments are always positive, but what I feel is that, behind the words, there is something hidden — that I am a special case, that I am, how to say it now, the exception. And I think that this needs to be worked out: even if it is not the norm for some things, we are ideally going in that direction, and that it is the right direction to follow.

Pinelopi: Is there a person in your environment that you have influenced towards this direction? 

Vassilis: I’m definitely talking to other dads who have children of the same age. And we certainly exchange some views. I mean, I don’t think it’s something “for us”, but I think it’s something in small variations. 

Pinelopi: Vassilis, you mentioned just before that there are dads with whom you discuss things, ok, maybe now that Cleo is eight months old, it is not a priority to be in a collective of dads,but there are dads in your environment with children of the same age. Do you ask each other for advice? 

Vassilis: That’s a very good question. Because what I’ve noticed is that, while there’s a lot of good material on social media, it’s how that material is filtered. What you choose to follow may not have good advice. But what I notice all the time — and it’s very true of men — is that they often don’t know how to ask for or filter out good advice.  Because I think this is a technique that is necessary at every level. It can be personal — about raising a child, about a relationship, professional— that is, how to make a decision, how to choose a career, or how to “manage” a difficult situation. Advice is needed. And I think that, many times, or several times, we do not have the knowledge to cope with a difficult situation. And what I can say with certainty is that, in the last eight months, there have been many difficult situations. That is, with the issue of parenting and raising an eight-month-old child, a lot of advice is needed. But there is also a lot of very bad advice around. How do you filter that, and how do you separate the good from the bad? It is a process.

Pinelopi: If you had one piece of advice to give — because what you’re mentioning now and we’re discussing is very important — it has a little to do with one skill also: asking for help. It’s the development of this skill to admit that I can’t do it on my own; I can’t do it alone, I need help. What is your advice for developing this skill?  Of asking for help and filtering? Because building a circle that includes people, not necessarily those I agree with, but those I trust. Therefore, I listen to their advice, and I may modify it a little, adjust it to my standards, and try to follow it to see if it suits me. This is also a skill. If I’m a new dad, and I’m listening to you right now, what advice would you give to this dad who needs to ask for help, and also could offer some guidance? 

Vassilis: And of course to offer help. I think this is an ongoing negotiation. I mean, you will find people who will offer you help, but it may not be the right kind of help. 

Pinelopi: Where do I find these people? To get rid of unrelated staff, where am I going to start in order to find it as a new dad? Let’s assume I don’t have a social circle. I have just come to Athens, and we have just had a child. What should I do?

Vassilis: You have got to acquire a circle, though. Because again, I believe that a child should be in a circle, and that the child  should feel safe. So, as a priority, what you teach a child is how to be in a social circle and learn through it. 

Pinelopi: Should I start with the neighborhood and the playground, if I have the privilege of being in such a neighborhood? 

Vassilis: Of course. And I think that simple conversations and acquaintances over there offer a wealth of information. 

Pinelopi:  And acquaintances and friendships. So start with the playground, I would say. At three months old, you can’t do that, but you can go around the playground with the stroller. What I wanted to ask you before is — going back a little bit to the beginning of the conversation — you said: we are starting to actively participate, both of us, in the upbringing of the child. And especially you, as a dad. Because that’s what doesn’t happen often. The other is somehow a “must”: you’re a mom, you’ve become a mom, you have to participate actively, it’s as if you have no other choice. So we leave that for a while, we put it aside. You mentioned earlier the small and the big things. We mentioned the small ones and some big ones. I want to add something that weighed on me — my daughter is now 12+ years old, but it’s something that happens even now. One of the big things is what we call in fluent Greek, mental load. That is: for the child to go to the pediatrician — and I’m talking about parenthood in particular — for the refrigerator to be full, for diapers’ stock, for me to call the grandmother who is going to babysit the child, to get the babysitter who will babysit her, but also to answer the email about whether I can go on the business trip or not. All this, traditionally, falls on moms. I would like to make a small comment on this. Do you think about it? Is it something included in the negotiation? Because my next question is: is there a stereotype in relation to fatherhood and your role in the upbringing and care of a child, concerning which, no matter how much you want to be there equally, something holds you back? Do you still struggle with it? Not to have overcome patriarchy? 

Vassilis:  First of all, there’s always bias, let’s say. I don’t think it’s eliminated in any case. Yes, and of course. I think being a mother of a child is quite difficult and having a career at the same time. I think the first move is to accept it. That it’s extremely difficult. And that every day is going to be a struggle. So, in every struggle — on a very theoretical basis — it’s a question of how you can manage your time, first of all. But also your feelings, I would say. That is, all this also creates anxiety, and in the end, it can also create anger. So, I think the most important thing for me is to know that my partner is feeling something, so I can be there for her. That is, if someone doesn’t communicate it, it would be very difficult for me to respond to that. That is, to organize my time accordingly, to be able to work on something that is missing at that moment. So, I think communication plays an important part.

Pinelopi: And communication has to do with, I think, it’s probably also connected to what we were talking about before: to ask for help. So, yes, I communicate my needs to you, but you also offer me help. I mean, you say to me, “Do I need to do something? Is there something I can do? Do you feel something?” In other words, I think this must come from both sides. 

Vassilis: Yes. But, I also think the redistribution of responsibilities is very dynamic… Again, I think I said it in the beginning. 

Pinelopi: No, but it’s important to say it, because, you know, sometimes we talk about an equal distribution of caregiver responsibilities. And if a person hears this phrase and hasn’t heard a corresponding conversation, he may think that care is an equal matter, it means that, well, you do these, I do those, we write it on stone, and that’s it.  But what actually comes and returns at this moment in the conversation is that it’s a daily negotiation. Therefore, the mental load is a daily negotiation. The mental load gives me a hard time, and we have to understand this. 

Vassilis: I think so. I think, I mean, that’s how you manage it mainly, and accept that it’s going to be out there. I mean, I think that the idea that I’m going to continue to have a career, and have a child, but I want to be psychologically calm all the time or calm… 

Pinelopi: And I will lack sleep.

Vassilis: I think you can reach the end of your tether, some days. And we have reached it. The thing is, how do you go about communicating it, how you manage it, and what solutions you find at that moment? There may be no solutions at that moment. There may be solutions in two days’ time. 

Pinelopi:  What you say is nice and important. I will keep it in mind, because both communication and discussion can mean that fine, we sit down and find a solution, while in reality, it may be what you were saying, that there may not be a solution now that suits all parties. But let’s not find it in two weeks. Let’s think about it and find it in two days, and possibly with difficulty,  with tension, with anger, perhaps, as you said. I would like to conclude with two more questions. What has care taught you during these eight months? 

Vassilis: Very good question. 

Pinelopi: It was to be a whole episode, but now it will be a question. 

Vassilis: Well, if I could say something about care, it’s that it takes on a lot of different shades, firstly. And secondly, you can take care of, let’s say, someone else in order for him to take care of someone else. Let us say that I take care of Cleo’s mom so that Cleo is okay, too. And we also take care of the relationship we have.  That is to say, that is another part, that we nurture the relationship so that Cleo is well too. That’s the important part. It is not only a binary issue, that I simply care. And the other part, now that I reconsider it, is that “caring” does not mean only tasks. That we have ten things to do today is, in essence,  a to-do list. It is not only that. Care, I think, goes beyond that. And that, as I said earlier, Cleo feels safe. Now, obviously, it is very difficult for me to communicate with Cleo. When she needs something, she just cries. But we can see, little by little, more and more, some signs of what it takes for her to feel a little better, a little safer, a little nicer. To have a better time, not to get bored. Not to keep her isolated. To include her in the conversation, in the company, in life. 

Pinelopi: And not to be isolated yourselves and be part of society, and this doesn’t necessarily mean just the playground. That’s where I want to focus on the next and last question, which is: what change would you like to see in society? Or, let’s not be so general, let’s say:  What change would you like to see at work, to leave the playground a little, to go to the work environment, in order to make care a more equal affair? And perhaps, if we are both employees, and we don’t have the flexibility you describe, it doesn’t always have to be because this happens in the majority of cases, that I, as a mom, won’t take the business trip so that you can go. 

Vassilis: That is exactly the case. What I thought was that one part of it is, which I think is a stereotype, let’s say, is that I don’t hire someone because they have other obligations. That is, I won’t hire a woman because there is a risk of her becoming a mom.

Pinelopi: Well, it’s even before she has obligations, we have to say that. 

Vassilis: Right, yes. So I think, if you think about it, basically what has happened now is that we have entered into a process of thinking that the mother fully takes over the upbringing of the children. If both sexes, all of us, had the opportunity to participate in the upbringing, there would be the risk that we may all be equally absent from work.  Therefore, the risk somehow becomes more horizontal. In other words, it includes all of us, all workers. So there is no minority, someone who will participate in an interview and say, “You know what? Now I understand her. In a year, she will have children.” I think that if we eliminate this, the dialogue, both social and labor, will be carried out on a completely different basis. 

Pinelopi: Do we need examples to do that? That is, to see more dads taking parental leave, so that I, as a non-dad, can also see Vassilis who has taken the parental leave that he is entitled to as a dad — because these things exist as well — and say: “Ok, so I can too.” And Vassilis went back to work, and nothing happened. 

Vassilis: Okay, I think it’s a part that “if you are away from work, I will lose face, career or a meeting that is very important”. I think that this is a very personal matter that needs to be worked out by a lot of people. But what I would think is that, if you don’t take this leave as a man, you don’t give yourself the opportunity to make the change that I mentioned before. So you have to be part of the solution and not part of the problem, and I think it’s a good opportunity to show that: “You know what, we’re all going to take the leave anyway.” Now, I understand that there are difficult periods at work, but I think this can also be manageable. But I think that’s a different discussion. 

Pinelopi: Another discussion, another episode. Vassilis, thank you very much. I hope you enjoyed it. 

Vassilis: Thank you, it was super, very nice. And good luck with the program. 

Pinelopi: Thank you very, very much. 

Closing: What do you think about what we discussed with Vassilis today? What else do you think CAREdiZO can create that will bring us one step closer to equality in and out of work? We are here to read and listen to your suggestions, comments, and ideas. Follow us on social media, send us an email, leave us a review on Spotify, come and meet us at the WHEN Hub, and let’s continue the discussion to make WHEN and CAREdiZO even better for everyone.

Introduction: Welcome to the new season of WHEN On Topic. I’m Stella Kasdagli, and I’m back with you to discuss women’s professional and economic empowerment and equality at work. Sometimes even outside of it. This season of our podcast is dedicated to caregiving responsibilities and their equal distribution, and it comes to you thanks to CAREdiZo. What is “CAREdiZo?” It’s a new project we’re involved in as part of the European Commission’s “CERV” programme, which aims to bridge the gender gap in caring responsibilities by promoting equality practices at home, in micro businesses, and small civil society organizations with up to ten employees. The project promotes family-friendly policies, encourages men to participate in caregiving, and highlights the value of caregiving across society, which is what we have been aspiring to for so long. Its activities include research, co-creation workshops, training programmes, and the development of digital tools, such as an educational game, for example, but also podcasts like the one you are listening to here today, to fight stereotypes and promote equality. Our partners are based in Cyprus, Lithuania, and Bulgaria and are currently creating their own podcasts, which you might have the chance to get to explore soon. So in this episode of When On Topic, we’re going to try to call a spade a spade. We’ll talk about  guilt, opportunities, big moments, tears,  imperfections, and the triumphs of working moms. Joining me is Vasso Pouli,  founder of NVLOG, Director of Sales & Marketing for Sandberg Translation Partners, and mother to an almost eleven-year-old daughter. Together, we will discuss the combination of motherhood and work, whether we can ultimately have it all, and if so, why, and if not, why?

Stella: Vasso, welcome.

Vasso: Thank you (for having me), Stella, and thank you very much for the invitation.

Stella: I’ll remind those of you who have been listening to our podcast for a few years now that the first episode we did with Vasso was in the midst of the pandemic, from our home, in which Vasso, as the CEO of a mid-sized – I’ll say – company at the time, spoke to us about how the company transitioned to the hybrid work model- first remotely, and later to a hybrid model. And I think that even that conversation was also connected to caregiving because during the pandemic,  we all – and especially all of us (women)- were called to take on a bigger share of caregiving than we were used to, alongside our work/jobs.

Vasso: Yes, that’s right, and I remember that episode very well. We had started working on implementing the remote working program long before COVID, so that helped us a lot in switching to a completely remote work model in a very short time due to COVID for a team that was scattered across different countries and cities – inside and outside Greece – and with different roles and responsibilities.

Stella: Let me ask you something about that period: what percentage of the team was male and what was female? Also did you, as CEO, observe any differences in how men and women responded to the remote model?

Vasso: Yes. When we implemented it pre-COVID, when we actually started implementing it and for the first year or two, the male-to-female ratio in the company, without being absolutely sure at this point, was approximately 70% women to 30% men. What really struck me was that, at first, everyone found it difficult to adopt; they struggled with leaving the office, with accepting that “yes, we can do this from home,” but gradually, adoption came first from the women. They were the ones who took the initiative to ask for more time working from home or to ask whether they could work from another location,not necessarily their home. So that’s how we transitioned from working from home to working from anywhere. On the other hand, it was a distinct group of men – younger in age, I would say, who did not have caregiving responsibilities at that time –  who, even though they could also use this to reduce their commuting time, some had pets that they could possibly spend more time walking before or after work, who didn’t take advantage of it and continued to come into the office regularly.

Stella: Maybe it’s a different sense of duty, or a feeling of “this is what I need to do in order to move forward in my career.” 

Vasso: Yes, possibly, yes. 

Stella: Perhaps work, I would say, is one of the main ways men socialize – and it may be that they find it more difficult to open up to new people and socialize outside of work, and maybe, for them, the office serves as a key space for social interaction.

Vasso: It could be; I hear that as a valid idea. In our case, though, I don’t think that was the main driver, because, as I mentioned, our teams were spread out across different countries and cities, so that kind of social interaction was quite limited anyway. 

Stella: Right. I’ll come back to that. Let me ask you this: based on your own experience, your own caregiving responsibilities, your life outside of work, how have you experienced this combination of work and family, let’s say, or work and motherhood, or work and caring for other family members? And then I’ll move on to the next question, but let’s stay with this for now, with your personal experience. 

Vasso: Great. My personal experience –  I’ll take you back a few years. As you said, I have a daughter who is almost 11 years old, so we’re going quite a bit back in time. When I became pregnant, the expectation from my immediate and extended family and social circle was that I would take on the majority, if not the entirety, of the caregiving responsibilities. On the other hand, I derive a lot of satisfaction from my work, so I returned to my job after my maternity leave. I was very fortunate back then to be in a company where there was a great willingness to support and be flexible, so that someone could adjust to this new reality. That, combined with the fact that I returned to a role with a high level of responsibility, gave me even greater flexibility to shape my professional obligations in a way that also allowed me to care for my young daughter. What this experience left me with is the realization that, even though I consider myself very lucky, there was still a significant challenge or a real burden in constantly switching between two equally demanding roles. So that’s how the first couple of years went. Later on, I took on more responsibility within the company, which gave me the opportunity to go even further – to expand on that and implement programs and initiatives that could support roles that were not necessarily equally senior.

Stella: That’s a really important point. I would like you to tell me how your experience as a new mother influenced the decisions you made later as a leader. That is, whether the policies you introduced, for example, were partly based on your own needs at the time, whether you felt greater empathy toward people who were in a similar or even the same situation. How did the difficulties you went through make you believe that others shouldn’t have to go through similar difficulties? Because that also happens.

Vasso: Yes. Many times in my experience and life so far, I’ve found myself in situations where I judged others based on my own experiences, and that has also been criticized. Quite rightly so. There are too many examples. I know how to manage a project in a certain way because no one else could. Or I misjudged someone’s resilience and reaction to a situation, because no one else could be equally resilient or react in the same way. So, when I took over as CEO of the company and was able to implement practices and policies, the truth is, yes, my instinct was to go back to “I experienced it this way, so let’s see how we can build on that to implement something that will serve a similar need.” On the other hand, I wanted to balance that with the understanding that there are other experiences, other capacities, and different circumstances. So, I am not sure if I did it very successfully, but what I found that worked -both for me and for others-  was to implement broader policies, and in each individual case, to be an opportunity to improve or adapt those policies accordingly, so that in their updated version, they could support either more diverse cases or different needs, and that’s more or less how we moved forward in the company.

Stella: I think this is also something characteristic of newer companies – in the sense that even if you don’t have a parental leave policy, if you or an employee, any employee, doesn’t need to use such leave, it doesn’t matter. Okay, there are policies set by the state, but how you implement, expand, or change them to meet a broader set of needs only becomes clear when a practical need arises from the people themselves. Isn’t that right?

Vasso: Yes, I would say so, actually. On the other hand, I think that we need to change this way of thinking and start formulating at least some basic policy,  which can then be improved upon, because there are cases and companies, and teams where there is a great willingness to offer many kinds of support, to allow flexibility in many areas beyond just working hours, location, or even the implementation of standard, legally defined benefits.

But as long as this remains at the level of individual arrangements, a one-to-one interaction, whether with the employer or the team manager, then it’s just a singular case. It’s not necessarily something that can be offered to another woman or another man. So when we move beyond these isolated arrangements and into a universal framework, which may not be fully complete or may not cover all possible alternatives, but at least exists, we open up the dialogue and we open up the conversation. We are able to communicate something, and once we communicate something, someone can ask further questions about it. So it becomes a consultation process. If none of this exists, and each person has to inform themselves and do their own research, a kind of secrecy often emerges.

Stella: And perhaps even a sense of fear.

Vasso: Fear as well, yes. That’s why I’m in favor of structured programs and policies. 

Stella: Very good. What challenges did you encounter in implementing these policies? I imagine it wasn’t all smooth from beginning to end. So, if you could talk to us about some of the difficulties that came up along the way, what were they?

Vasso: I mentioned one earlier. When we implemented Work from Home and later Work from Anywhere, pre-COVID, the level of adoption wasn’t what I had expected. So one challenge was resistance to change,even when the change might actually benefit you. That was the first challenge. What I found there was that a lot of communication is needed. But what truly made the difference was the first person who took the step to use the program. And of course, the fact that there was no criticism for doing so. Or that, if there was any criticism, it received the proper response, and it quickly became understood that this was something fully accepted. Later on, we were one of the first 18 companies to be awarded the Equality Label under the work-life balance program. There, what really surprised me was how the implementation of the program and of the label, in the context of declaring leaves, for example, in the system through which we interact with the state as a business, could not be supported. No provision has been made, no necessary modification has been made to ERGANI 1 at the time to support additional benefits, and that’s where I really struggled to reconcile my own will and the label we had been awarded with the advice of our accountant, who and rightly so, was very cautious about how such benefits, like extra leave days, could be implemented, how they would be declared, they couldn’t be declared, and so on. 

Stella: Yes, that’s very important, and it’s something that we’re still facing, I would say continuously, even though the systems seem to be improving, and the intention, from what I understand, is to align with what the State is also trying to promote as flexibility, inclusion, and equality. Nevertheless, there are still significant gaps that make it difficult to implement every good intention of the employer. Yes, many times. I’ll turn back to you now. Over these eleven years, including your pregnancy, what has been the thing that possibly challenged you the most? What is something you’ve learned, and what has enriched you the most? What has made you better, or brought you the greatest joy?

Vasso: Difficult questions. I’ve definitely learned a lot. What has challenged me the most is the expectation, which is not necessarily my own, but I feel I carry it too, the expectation to step into and fulfill roles either exclusively, meaning to be just one thing, e.g. “the mother” or roles that have been shaped without my input. So, how am I supposed to be a mother? Or if I am working, how am I both an employee and a mother? I think that’s been a process for me – to understand why I get into the mindset, why I act in a certain way, then to filter what is truly mine and what isn’t, to reach a point where I can justify my choices, because at first, I couldn’t always do that. Why do I make certain choices? All of that has been a long process of learning and growth. What has brought me a lot of joy is the fact that, in some ways, I see that this process, which was difficult for me to go through at the age of over 35,  comes a bit more naturally to my daughter. Of course not for the same dilemmas or the same choices, but in terms of how she can reconcile, how she can balance different roles, or different desires of hers, it comes a little more smoothly.

Stella: Do you think that, in a way, she’s processing what she saw in your own effort to do it, your own journey, and is perhaps observing that?

Vasso: I want to say yes. I would say that, beyond my own process, my choices in the environments I find myself in, where I want to be now, and the way I process certain actions, I discuss these decisions with her because they may also concern her, and she also comes into contact with these environments.I think that has played a very important role because it is not enough for children to only see their parents going through this process, but what’s also important, and this may give them even more affirmation, is when  others are going through similar processes and making similar choices.

Stella: This takes me a bit back to something you mentioned that you learned to ask yourself and try to understand why you do the things you do, and my question is, were you able to better understand why the other people in your environment, who shape these various roles with more rigid criteria, do so? Did you take a step closer to understanding why that happens from their side also? For example, why does my male colleague expect me to do things in a specific way? Why does my husband or my mother or my sister expect me to be a mother in a specific way? Were you able to reach a deeper understanding of that? And I don’t just mean an intellectual understanding; I mean an emotional understanding as well, of why this happens.

Vasso: Yes, probably in some cases, not always. I tried to rationalize certain things, and they do have a basis. On the other hand, for me, the fact that something might have a logical basis doesn’t necessarily mean that this is how we should continue moving forward. Emotionally, it was even harder for me because I think what I was experiencing, the choices I wanted to make, were in conflict with what the other side saw. So I don’t know if I’ve made great progress on that, but I do think that a very big part of other people’s choices, of other people’s actions, has to do with stereotypes. I go back to the idea that this is what they were taught; this is what is expected of them. And on the other hand, in my own case, I was always the odd one out, even from a young age.

Stella: A spirit of contradiction, as my grandmother used to say.

Vasso: Yes, I won’t say that, and I also tried to avoid the phrase “the black sheep,” but was the one who also wondered why. And the truth is, I am struggling now because I get the same question from my daughter about everything. And many times, we’ve entered a process and a dialogue in order for me to be able to justify why I’ve given her a certain answer and why we are making a choice together.

Stella: Have you felt, or do you feel, guilt from this reconciliation, the difficulty of reconciling, or the lack of reconciliation, anyway?

Vasso: Many times.

Stella: More as a mother or more as a worker?

Vasso: Both. But I would say more as a mother, because on the work side, I could control more. Because either by staying up late, or with extra hours, or on weekends, in some way, it was more under my control than, perhaps, the gap I felt I was leaving in my daughter’s life, because either I didn’t have enough time, or I didn’t have the mental clarity at that moment to respond to her needs. And since you’re also dealing with another person’s schedule, her activities, her sleep, and her friends, that was harder. So more often in my role as a mother.

Stella: If a young woman came to you who wants, one way or another, to follow in your footsteps- I don’t necessarily mean in the same professional field- but she was to have a career, she wants to reach a position of responsibility, she wants to invest in her professional life, and she asked you: “Can I do both? Can I combine them? Can I have it all?” -in quotation marks- what would you tell her?

Vasso: I would tell her that it takes a village to raise a child, so it is very important to have a support network. She may be able to do everything, but she will need help with her family or raising a child; she will need partners, companions, and support in emergencies. And for me, this work-life balance is never a balance. I don’t think that the day or the month or the year can be divided in half for a working parent – whether male or female – and that there can be this absolute balance. There will be times when caregiving will require a large part of your attention, of yourself, of your energy, and of your time. Similarly, there will be times when your professional life will need to tip the scales in that direction. That is when we need support, because beyond the unexpected, even the planned, you know that these stages will occur.

Stella: Thank you very much. I heard many things that mirror my own experience, and I also heard many things that I hadn’t thought of. I hope that as we talk about different topics over the years that touch on work and private life in one way or another, we will continue to have these discussions together with other women and men so that we can evolve even more.

Vasso: Yes, thank you too, Stella, and I really hope we can have more discussions with more women and men.

Conclusion: What did you think of what we shared today with Vasso, and what else do you think CAREdiZo could potentially create that would bring us one or more steps closer to equality, both inside and outside of work? We are always here to read and listen to your suggestions, comments, and ideas, so you can follow us on social media, send us an email, leave us a review on Spotify, and, of course, come and meet us at WHEN Hub, a space where we aspire to support both work and care for women and men. So let’s continue the discussion so that we can make WHEN and CAREdiZo even better for everyone.

Introduction: Welcome to the new season of WHEN On Topic! I’m Pinelopi Theodorakakou, and yes, you’re not mistaken – our podcast has a new name, as does our organisation. Women on Top is now WHEN; but it continues, just as before, to invest in the professional and economic empowerment of women and in workplace equality, and often, beyond it. This podcast season, for example, is dedicated to caregiving responsibilities and their equal distribution, and it comes to you thanks to CAREdiZO. What is CAREdiZO? It’s a new project we are participating in under the CERV programme of the European Commission. Its aim is to bridge the gender gap in caregiving responsibilities by promoting equality-driven practices at home, in very small businesses, and in small civil society organisations with up to 10 employees. The project supports family-friendly policies, encourages men to participate  in caregiving, and highlights the value of care in society- values we, too, have long been advocating for. Its actions include research, co-creation workshops, training programs, and the development of digital tools, such as an educational game, and podcasts like the one you’re listening to now, all designed to combat stereotypes and promote equality. Our partners come from Cyprus, Lithuania, and Bulgaria, and are currently creating their own podcast episodes, which you may  have the opportunity to discover soon. The second episode of this season is, unsurprisingly, dedicated to care. So, we’re talking with Dimitra Gounari, PCI parent coach and parent educator, about what it really means to care, why care doesn’t quite “fit”, in quotes, into our work, and what needs to happen for a team or a company to truly embed a culture of care into the way it operates.

Pinelopi: Dimitra, welcome to WHEN on Topic. 

Dimitra: Good evening, thank you so much for having me here today. 

Pinelopi: Would you like to tell us in a few words about yourself? 

Dimitra: Yes, of course. As you mentioned, I’m a PCI Parent Coach, which means I support and empower parents. Alongside that, since 2021, I’ve been providing support services for working parents within the workplace. And over the past two years or so, that has evolved from parental support to supporting individuals with caregiving responsibilities in the workplace more broadly. Essentially, through proposals, workshops, training sessions, and talks, I aim to help workplaces become more inclusive of people with caregiving responsibilities. 

Pinelopi: That’s great. Thank you so much for that mini-introduction. I’ll come back toward the end of our conversation to ask what we can actually do in work environments when it comes to care. But first, I’d like to ask: when you hear the word care, what’s the first thing that comes to your mind? 

Dimitra: These days? Because, to be honest, and this has changed over time for me, especially as I’ve been working in the field and interacting with caregivers, it’s definitely evolved. But what I’ve come to understand over time is that care carries responsibility. It also brings exhaustion, and it also includes solidarity. So, there’s a positive element too. On the one hand, there’s responsibility, which I experience as somewhat neutral. Then there’s exhaustion, which has a more negative emotional charge. But the positive element is solidarity. 

Pinelopi: Can I ask you something? I’d like to share my perspective on care and ask if you’ve ever thought or felt the same way. Doesn’t care have a strange sense of time to it? What I mean is: we often find ourselves caring for many people at the same time, in completely different situations. 

Dimitra: Yes, it’s nice that you feel that way, I mean, it’s interesting that it resonates with you. And yes, absolutely. It has a lot to do with how we relate to and interact with the people in our lives throughout it. And maybe that’s what creates this experience of time, the sense that with the same people, in the same roles, as time goes by, we are both giving and receiving care. So, we may be caregivers, but we might also be receiving care from these people at other points in our lives. And that’s what makes things so complex and demanding.

Pinelopi: Do you remember a moment in your life, or a period, personal or professional, when care was a defining element? Either as something you were experiencing or something you were offering? 

Dimitra: Yes, that’s a great question. I think the role of motherhood is almost synonymous with care. For me personally, the first period after my son was born, when I had two children, stands out. When I gave birth to my son, I was working in the private sector. I wasn’t doing what I do now. I was in a different work environment, one that didn’t allow for flexibility. My physical presence was required much more, so the fact that I needed to care for my child at the same time was quite demanding. I remember that time vividly, with all the difficulties that this kind of care brings. Of course, I should say here that this is why the maternal role, precisely because it’s so closely tied to care, often leads us to overlook how difficult it actually is for parents to carry caregiving responsibilities while also working. So that was one period. Another one, which I’ve experienced more recently, was earlier this school year, at the end of the previous one, when my father had to undergo surgery. So I had to step in and support in various ways. My mother is his main caregiver, but there’s also all the additional stuff around that, which for many people is included in daily life, like transportation, emotional support, and so on. And at the same time, I had my own kids, not just one, but two. That made it even harder. There were many caregiving responsibilities occurring simultaneously for different individuals. 

Pinelopi: And you’re highlighting an important point; well, there are so many things we don’t talk about when it comes to care, and that’s actually my next question, but you’re also pointing to something even more invisible: caring for the caregivers. For instance, what you said about your mother, someone may be the primary caregiver for another person, but that person also has needs that require care. And because their time and energy are tied up, even temporarily, whether for a long or short period, someone else needs to take care of the “surrounding tasks,” as you called them. And I want us to stay with that for a moment: why do you think, based on your experience, both in supporting parents and in the workplaces you’ve been a part of, either as an employee or as a coach or trainer, why does care continue to remain invisible in so many of the spaces where we spend so many hours of our lives? 

Dimitra: Yes. For me, perhaps the most important thing is that this conversation is only just beginning in Greece, and very slowly at that. Even abroad, care is so deeply embedded in our very being, especially when it comes to women. The stereotype of the “woman-mother who cares,” who is always there and will always be there to provide, as if it’s an essential part of her existence, makes it really hard to name this as a difficulty, to name it as a separate responsibility. And this makes it so much harder for us to advocate for something better or for measures that could make our path easier. Let me give you an example: every time I run a care awareness workshop, the most important moment is right at the beginning, when we ask, “Do you have caregiving responsibilities?” The first reaction is usually “No.” I think the only thing people tend to identify quickly, if you just ask “Do you have care responsibilities?”, is the role of parenting. But once I start giving other examples, “Has this ever happened to you?” or “Have there been times when…”, then slowly, everyone participating realises that at some point in their life, or even at that moment, they do have care responsibilities. So, I think the first difficulty in doing anything about this is just recognising it. We don’t have it registered in our minds as such. I also want to say this: there’s an argument I often hear, and I understand it to an extent, that “If we talk about everything this way, we lose a bit of our humanity.” Many people have said to me: “But isn’t that just part of being human?” And yes, it is part of our humanity. Yes, we absolutely don’t want to lose that. Yes, support networks and solidarity are incredibly important. But what we’re missing, and what I’m really trying to work toward, is ensuring that this deeply human and beautiful element doesn’t become an obstacle to work, to financial independence, to our dreams, to hope, or to our mental health.

Pinelopi: Dimitra, in relation to what you just said, so there’s a kind of taboo around talking about the needs we have as people with caregiving responsibilities. Like, if I care for someone, there must automatically be some element of self-sacrifice involved. Otherwise, I’m somehow not human enough. I don’t know.

Dimitra: Yes, Pinelopi, that’s exactly right. It’s very present, and it’s especially strong in parenting. I think we’ve all heard the phrase, “Well, they’re your kids, you chose to have them, why are you complaining?” This goes for both mothers and fathers. And something else, which I think is extremely important, and which needs a lot more attention in Greece, and this podcast is a great opportunity to shine a light on it, is the care provided for older adults: our parents, our siblings, women toward their spouses, which is the most common case (though of course the opposite exists too). In those situations, it’s like caregiving must always be, let me put it this way, “from the heart,” and we must always be happy to offer help. But, that’s incredibly hard for the person who is providing the care. Because this emotional expectation is tied to the caregiving role, either one they’ve chosen or simply found themselves in, that expectation puts a huge burden on them. As a result, they often don’t ask for help, and they end up emotionally crushed. And they face a lot of challenges, financial, physical, psychological, and so on. 

Pinelopi: And emotional, yes, what you said, this emotional crushing. That “care” equals something self-evident, “care” equals self-sacrifice, no matter who I’m providing care for. Whether I chose to have kids, so “why complain,” or I’m caring for an aging parent, who once cared for me, then it’s my “role” to do it, and to do it with a smile, with joy, with patience, and with self-sacrifice. And I wonder if this assumption of self-sacrifice, this social expectation, as you beautifully put it, especially when directed toward people who once cared for us in the past. I wonder if that assumption is actually a key barrier to integrating care, to bring it back to the workplace, workplace policies, and the everyday practices of organisations. And let’s note here that because CAREdiZO is a program focused on small businesses and small organisations, I’d like us to focus a bit on those types of environments. 

Dimitra: First of all, yes, I believe this is one of the main obstacles. That’s why I’d say, quite quickly, that perhaps the first policy strategy any business, regardless of size, could adopt in order to introduce a care-focused philosophy is simply to talk about caregiving responsibilities. To define what it means to be an informal caregiver. To identify whether we ourselves are, or have been, or might one day become one. Because in many cases, it’s quite obvious that it will happen at some point. And when I say “obvious,” I mean that we know more or less our own ages, we know that our parents, for example, might begin to experience health issues. So, understanding where I stand, now, in the past, and potentially in the future, is incredibly helpful. When we use that kind of language, like saying, “Are you an informal caregiver?”, then we open the door to the next questions, which are: “What are your needs? What are these care responsibilities?” Because, as you know, this doesn’t look the same for everyone. Care responsibilities might be medical, for instance, I have to give the injections, or I have to hand out my parent’s medication. Or they might be daily and practical, like transportation, grocery shopping, doing tasks around the house or the yard, fixing the lights, keeping an eye on all kinds of things. And then there’s emotional support. Especially when caring for someone with Alzheimer’s, this is extremely important. If you ask people who have cared for a parent with Alzheimer’s, a huge part of that care is just being there, talking with them, spending time, engaging. So, care responsibilities vary, and every responsibility has a specific impact on me. That means I have specific needs in my workplace. And it’s really helpful for this to happen openly. For there to be open conversations. For employers to be aware of this and to ask about it in this way. And for employees themselves to be able to see themselves through that lens, to recognise that caregiving is part of their identity and life, and something that needs to be supported at work.

Pinelopi: I’d say you just very nicely outlined five steps, which we’ll come back to a bit later, probably as we close the episode. But first, I want to return to something you said earlier, about time. Spending time with the person I care for is also an invisible side of care. You outlined three dimensions earlier: First, providing practical care, giving injections, handling medications, driving someone around, and so on. Second, taking care of everything around that, grocery shopping, maintaining the house, running errands, going to public services, transport, all that. And third, just being there. Spending time. Without “doing anything”, in huge quotation marks. Just being there. And I wonder, because one of the main goals of CAREdiZO is to explore and encourage men’s  participationin caregiving, how could strengthening men’s involvement in caregiving affect family dynamics (regardless of what form the family takes), and also have an impact in workplaces? 

Dimitra: This is one of the most important issues. Their role is extremely important, and the entire effort to get men to take on a more active role in these responsibilities is crucial. To begin with, women dominate all the statistics. They are far more likely to find themselves in caregiving roles, especially after age 40. If we think of informal care as one big basket, informal caregivers, about 70% are women. And the majority of those are women over 50. Which, of course, has major implications for their mental health. A large segment is women who care for their husbands, and they are often over 65 years old themselves. That’s also very common. Now, this leads to two major outcomes: Women are more likely to retire early or reduce their work hours because of caregiving. This brings serious economic consequences, for example, if someone begins caregiving at 45 or 50, they’ll later have fewer resources when they themselves are in need of care. And that’s really the cycle of care in people’s lives. What I’m trying to say is, if we don’t act now, in 30 years or so, we’re going to be facing enormous caregiving needs. And since the demographics around aging are not looking favorable in Greece (or in many countries), this raises major concerns about whether we’ll be able to meet long-term care needs. But let me return to your question; sorry for the detour. 

Pinelopi: No, no, not at all. It’s relevant. Because essentially, what we’re saying is that women cannot continue to be the only ones providing care. Even if we wanted to keep doing it, it’s just not feasible anymore. 

Dimitra: Exactly. It puts women at a disadvantage. So, men taking on care responsibilities can absolutely lead to more equal distribution. That, in turn, makes this whole system of informal, long-term care more sustainable and effective. And I think there’s an enormous opportunity for men to take on roles they may have never imagined themselves in, whether we look at this through the lens of stereotypes or not. Because in my view, there’s nothing men can’t do when it comes to the caregiving roles women typically hold. And in the workplace, this might actually be the key that unlocks the conversation more quickly and easily. Meaning, if men start talking about or allowing themselves to openly express their caregiving responsibilities, I think it will greatly benefit women as well, giving them more space to talk and demand real change in the workplace. So yes, it’s extremely important.

Pinelopi: So essentially, what we’re saying is that this is no longer a luxury or a personal choice. Of course, encouraging equal participation in caregiving is the right thing to do, but beyond that, it’s becoming a necessity. 

Dimitra: Yes, it’s definitely a necessity. It’s a necessity because social policy for long-term care is not currently receiving the level of investment that would allow us to say with confidence that, in the coming years, we’ll have the infrastructure or state-supported services to meet the need. Unfortunately. So this caregiving burden will continue to grow, everywhere, not just in Greece. It’s a global trend. And it’s becoming a workplace issue, too, because we’re losing parts of the workforce. Think about it: someone who is 45–50 years old, whether a woman or a man, has already made progress in their career. They’re part of the human capital we want to retain. But, if they’re forced to step back due to caregiving responsibilities, which we know are likely at that age, and then you can’t easily replace them, that becomes a serious issue for employers. It’s no coincidence that this entire conversation often starts in workplaces. Employers are increasingly bringing this issue to the forefront, realising that we need to support the people who provide care to retain the talent we want in our organisations. 

Pinelopi: Do you think small organisations or small businesses might actually have more flexibility to foster a care-centered culture? Precisely because they are small, they have tight-knit, adaptable teams, and they can open up these conversations more easily. The groups are smaller, so it may take fewer resources to implement changes. Or, is it the opposite? That is because they are small, and things already run in a more informal way, they believe they’re already “taking care” of each other, so there’s no need for formal support? So maybe it’s harder for them? 

Dimitra: I think small and medium enterprises come in all shapes and sizes. 

Pinelopi: When we say “small organisations” or “small businesses,” we mean up to about ten people. 

Dimitra: Okay. Well, I think these are workplaces that probably wouldn’t even be able to function, or wouldn’t have lasted this long, if they weren’t already acknowledging caregiving responsibilities in some way. So I definitely think the conversation should happen there, and we also need to develop practical frameworks for those businesses to protect employees with caregiving responsibilities, and to promote structured care policies. Of course, that should happen; it would benefit everyone involved. But I believe these businesses are already doing it, informally, and that actually makes the path forward even easier. In fact, it may be more effective, and perhaps easier, for such a business to simply ask: “What are we already doing to support staff with caregiving responsibilities?”, after first explaining what caregiving responsibilities actually entail. So it’s about building on what’s already happening, and that, in my view, is a very positive starting point for the organisation.

Pinelopi: I’ll say here, though, that even if they are doing it, as you said, they’re doing it informally. That is, in most small businesses or small organisations, and I would even say in larger ones, though we’re focusing on the small, there are no official policies that recognise me as an informal caregiver, or that offer me any kind of flexibility or support I might need, if not now, then certainly in the future. And I think this is exactly where the problem lies: It’s all happening informally. And what does “informal” mean? It means it’s easily changeable, depending on needs, but usually those of the business, not the employee. So I’ll push back a little on what you said earlier, about whether or not these things are already happening. 

Dimitra: I completely agree with you. That’s exactly right, it happens informally. And not just in small organisations; it happens everywhere, which is the problem. I just believe that small businesses might be able to transition more effectively to something formal. Because they’re already doing it in some way, they could more easily formalise it. The real difficulty, I think, lies more in the nature of small businesses, not in caregiving itself or the cost it imposes on day-to-day operations. It’s more about their resistance to formalising things; that’s often just how small businesses operate. And of course, Pinelopi, I completely agree, it’s not enough to leave it up to personal discretion. It shouldn’t be up to me, for example, to decide whether to give you leave because your father needs you, or your kids called from school and they’re sick. That shouldn’t be my decision alone. Because that’s not a policy; that’s just us relying on “goodwill” or informal arrangements. And that’s not enough. Of course, for a small business to function, this more “family-like” atmosphere has helped build an informal support network. But what we’re saying is: If we could formalise that, if we could turn it into clear procedures, then maybe it’s actually easier to do so in workplaces where it’s already happening informally. I’m not sure if I said that clearly.

Pinelopi: Very clear, no worries. Earlier, you mentioned some practical steps a team or a business could take to integrate this culture of care that we’re talking about. Here’s what I took away, four main steps: Start talking about care. Clarify and discuss the concepts around care; what does “care” mean? What’s an informal caregiver? Understand where we stand, as individuals or as a team, in the “care cycle.” Are we in the thick of it? Just before it? Just after? All of the above? Start planning for prevention, recognising what needs are coming (and they will come), especially for people with less power or more responsibilities. So to do that, we need a needs assessment before any kind of prevention planning. Only then can we create or strengthen any care-related policies we already have (if any). That’s what I’ve taken from our talk: Talk, define the terms, assess needs, know where we are, and plan for prevention. 

Dimitra: You said it beautifully. 

Pinelopi: We said it well. Well, you said it, really. If you could change just one policy in an organisation, just one practical step that could bring immediate results and be the starting point, what would that policy be?

Dimitra: Mind if I say one and a half?

Pinelopi: No, not at all. Go ahead, say one and a half. 

Dimitra: I’ll keep it very practical because I know you like that a lot.

Pinelopi: I really, really do.

Dimitra: In every document where the employee is recorded, could be the onboarding form, an evaluation questionnaire for a workshop, anything, any document that shows the employee’s details, I would add a blank line that says: ‘If you are, have been, or may be responsible for caregiving.’ And that’s the one. This would create an important change, because someone might see that question and reflect: ‘What do they mean here?’ The other ‘half’ is that I would definitely recommend having  talks and training workshops for managers and employers in small businesses so that they are informed about what it means to be an informal caregiver. 

Pinelopi: I think you just stole the show, because that ‘half’ is actually a huge step! So to recap: the first step is a simple question: ‘Are you, have you been, or might you be responsible for caregiving?’ This means making the role visible and making visible those with caregiving responsibilities. Then, the next step, which is not half but a whole one, is a talk or workshop. A way to turn that question into a real discussion. Am I saying this right?

Dimitra: Yes, yes.

Pinelopi: Finally, this is a personal question for you, and I hope it will help others too, If you could send a message to people with caregiving responsibilities who feel guilty because they think they’re caring too much, and so they’re leaving other things behind, or that they’re caring not enough, and so they feel bad about it, what would that message be? Let’s close with that.

Dimitra: That what you’re doing is incredibly hard. That we thank you, even those of us who don’t directly receive your care, but know that you participate in a very important network. And that it’s okay to feel whatever you feel, negative, positive, pride, exhaustion. Maybe I would also ask: “Do you need anything?”

Pinelopi: Perfect. Dimitra, thank you so much for your time and for all the important things we discussed. We’ll talk again about caregiving responsibilities and everything else.

Dimitra: Of course. Thank you!

Pinelopi: Dimitra, where can people find you?

Dimitra: You can find me on social media. I post often, so you can follow me to stay updated about talks, workshops, and wherever else we might meet.

Pinelopi: Perfect. Thank you so, so much. Take care!

Closing: How did you find today’s conversation with Dimitra? What else do you think CAREdiZO can bring us to take one step closer to equality at work and beyond? We’re here to read your comments, suggestions, and ideas. Follow us on social media, send us an email, leave us a review on Spotify, come meet us at WHEN Hub, and let’s keep the conversation going to make WHEN and CAREdiZO even better for everyone.

Introduction: Welcome to the new season of WHEN on Topic – I’m Stella Kasdagli and yes, you’re not mistaken, our podcast’s name has changed, as did our organisation’s name! Women On Top became WHEN, but as before it continues to invest in women’s professional and economic empowerment and equality at work – sometimes even outside of it! For example, our current podcast series is dedicated to caregiving responsibilities and their equal allocation, coming to you thanks to CAREdiZO.

What is CAREdiZO? It is a new project we are involved in, under the European Commission’s CERV programme, which aims to bridge the gender gap in caring responsibilities by promoting equality practices at home, in micro-enterprises and small civil society organisations (with up to 10 employees).

The project supports family-friendly policies, encourages men to participate in caregiving and highlights the value of caregiving in the wider society – in other words, what we have been advocating for all along! Its activities include research, co-creation workshops, training programmes and the development of digital tools, such as an educational game and podcasts, aimed at combating stereotypes and promoting equality.

This first podcast episode is dedicated to the project and was created specifically for the purpose of introducing the project and the two organisations running it from Greece: WHEN and Challedu. The rest of our partners come from Cyprus, Lithuania and Bulgaria and are currently developing their own podcasts, which you may have a chance to discover shortly.

Until then, let’s now meet Asimina Brouzou, founder of Challedu, and discuss together how we came about to CAREdiZO and why equal sharing of caring responsibilities is so important but so elusive, still, for most of us!

Stella: Asimina, welcome to WHEN on Topic. 

Asimina: Good to be here, Stella.

Stella: Can you tell us a little bit about yourself and Challedu?

Asimina: Of course. Challedu is a non-profit organisation involved in creating educational materials and tools as well as workshops related to education and inclusion. Within these topics we essentially include gender equality for people of various ages, from students to adults. I’m one of the two founding members of Challedu and, at the moment, I’m responsible for organising the team and creating new projects on equality issues, as well as inclusion, and all relevant areas we are now discussing.

Stella: One of these projects brings us here today and we will be discussing your role and our role within the project next. But I’d like to start with a more personal question: How have you managed any challenges that have come up in your life, both professional and personal, and the combination of both, along with any caregiving responsibilities that you may have, as a mother, a daughter and a caregiver?

Asimina: Basically, I think that the challenges are many, on many levels, and they are changing at different ages as well. I mean, before having children, before I became a mother, I was already facing a lot of challenges in the professional field: as a woman actually at the head of Challedu, in creating opportunities for the organisation, in getting the funding so that the programmes could be realised. Then, when the children came into the picture, I think that’s where it became even more challenging… I don’t know if that’s your experience too.

Stella: …you realised then that before was nothing in comparison.

Asimina: Exactly, I got a little bit into the deep right away – I mean, I had twin girls, which was a level, I think, higher than having one child. In essence, it made it quite difficult to, I would say, combine, I guess, work – especially in an organisation like ours, which is small, and every person counts; and I was an important member of the team. So, it was quite a challenging time, achieving a balance between the two. While a certain balance may have been found eventually, I think it’s still not complete – because of the feeling of guilt: whether I should be with my kids more, whether I should be working more in the organisation. It’s a bit like… a chain of things coming all together.

Stella: I completely agree. You also mentioned a key word, that is “small”. And it’s worth noting here that the project that brings us here today, CAREdiZO, focuses on the challenges of working individuals in small organisations and small businesses, but also the challenges of the organisations and small businesses themselves that are called upon to support individuals in these caregiving responsibilities, as well. So, I think that’s a theme that’s going to be with us in the next few episodes. Here, what you’re describing… of course, we all face challenges at work – whether we have children or other caregiving responsibilities, or not. But, indeed, when other people come into our lives or the needs of others, family members, emerge and require our attention –whether on a regular basis or occasionally– then the degree of complexity of all the other things we manage increases exponentially. And let us say here that this is not just about parenting and children. It’s also about our role as caregivers to our parents growing up, to other people in the family… And potentially –because in WHEN we also talk a lot about community– not just the people in our family. It’s also people in our environment who we may want to support, who may have supported us, who may find themselves in a challenging time, and to whom we may want to offer the care that they need.

Asimina: Exactly – that has happened in our organisation. That is, apart from me as an individual, it has happened to other people working in our organisation, Challedu… We have had to take more “personal” measures, I would say, as there are not enough in place within the wider system or by the state, which would allow us to meet our responsibilities. So, in a way, we as an organisation are trying to fill that gap – so that the people we work with every day can feel that we are there, that we are close to them. And it’s important that they too can be close to the people they have under their care.

Stella: I think that’s a common thread that we’ve already witnessed in the preliminary focus groups that we have run as part of CAREdiZO. We may often perceive entrepreneurs or employers as “dry professionals” only interested in profit – in reality, the entrepreneurs and founders of non-profit organisations we have spoken to clearly express the need and desire to support employees in their lives beyond work. For some this may as well be a strategy – wanting to keep the best people happy in their workplaces. In many cases, though, this intention is often based on a solid human perception. What’s frequently missing is not the intention, but the tools and the know-how for employers in practice. I believe that is one of the key objectives of the CAREdiZO project.

Asimina: Yes, I think so too… I think when we designed CAREdiZO, looking both at the statistics that were out there in terms of care and basically non-equality in care issues, as well as at what policies are in place or not in place, we could see a very big gap as far as very small organisations and also companies are concerned. It doesn’t have to do that much with the individual founding member or entrepreneur, I think – in reality, it’s about lack of knowledge of practices, having to look for yourself alone, and being in the midst of the chaos of the many things there are to do and to grow… that’s where a more human approach comes in: “if something is happening now, we’ll deal with it”, but more broadly speaking we don’t have specific policies in mind. So, I think that’s where CAREdiZO will be investing quite a lot – discussing such issues to find new practices and new paths among ourselves. For me, it’s something that I personally think we need: practices shifting from the merely personal level –the “oh, I’m here today taking care”– when tomorrow or the day after tomorrow somebody else is in my position and they won’t know how to manage… We need to go to something a little bit more targeted and systematic.

Stella: Very well said… Definitely, I think it is something that we are also concerned about, as we grow as an organisation. Because something that was working when we were three people doesn’t necessarily work when we are ten. This is what we also recommend to companies that we work with – that there is both an equal treatment of all individuals and promoting male involvement in caring responsibilities. A lot of times, these informal benefits usually go to women, because we stereotype them in our minds as the ones who are going to take on most of the caregiving. Furthermore, when something is not documented nor tested or documented in a systematic way, sometimes bias or personal sympathy may come in. For example: “I think Asimina is a good employee, so now she deserves an extra holiday.” Or: “I think Dimitris hasn’t been performing very well and is now slacking off by saying he wants to take care of his mother, so I won’t grant him the leave.” We need objective criteria and a system, so that we can be confident – and so that individuals feel that they are being treated equally.

Asimina: Certainly, this is very important – the policies and practices that are developed within companies create this sense of fairness, if we can call it that, of equal perception. But I would also like to stress the issue of stereotyping. Because a lot of times, before we designed CAREdiZO, while working –being a mother of twins, one-year-olds– I was basically the full carer (as there was no other option, because leave days are more and the financial support through leave is also greater for the mother too). My husband needed to work, because with two children it is impossible to make ends meet – to just say that he stops to help me or that he takes unpaid leave… But essentially, for me –maybe for you too, you’ll let us know– gender equality being our area of expertise, I feel we hadn’t delved enough into the issues of care and unequal participation in it. A new chapter was being revealed to me: that, indeed, in our homes care issues are not in fact shared. But it was also a matter of stereotyping – my own, our culture’s. So, it’s a cultural issue as well, I would say, beyond the broader politics. I think that is also an area where CAREdiZO can succeed: to actually shift the culture, both in women and men. I think that the “men” aspect is very important; that men put themselves in the position of taking on caregiving – not because women may be asking for it, nagging for help, but instead for them to consider it on their own initiative. There is also talk about the mental burnout in women, which really translates to having to think about all the little things that the children need… the people they care for… taking care of the house – this is what I do, spontaneously, at some point. Because I know it’s going to take me longer to explain it. So, I think it’s good to support women and empower them, but it’s much more important –in some respects, at least – to empower men in regards to this issue: changing stereotypes and taking on their part of responsibility.

Stella: Certainly. A very recent example being the questionnaire that we have been running for working people to share with us how they themselves experience caregiving responsibilities. And we had to “chase down” –figuratively speaking– a lot more male participants to answer the questionnaire. They may not see themselves in this role as a principle or it is possible that they believe they already know what I am going to ask them. Or else, they may think this issue doesn’t concern them or even feel a degree of guilt because there is all this talk about unequal allocation… I don’t know. In any case, I think we need –as a society– to start rewarding care. Reward it as much as we reward power, as much as we reward beauty, as much as we reward professional success. Not just for that, but because, many times, when we talk to employers, they may say, “I do things in my company, I offer equal leave. But parents don’t go for it; caregivers don’t go for it.” Because society is shaped in such a way that it is assumed that the woman will play the bigger part in this. So, we kind of throw the ball at each other.

Asimina: And here I’d like to talk a little bit about the CAREdiZO pun, which comes from the Greek verb “to earn” (“kerdizo”), but also from the verb “to care”. In fact, we must consider that “to care” is a job –sometimes unpaid – that really allows us “to earn” in our lives. That is, there can be no living in today’s world without caring.

Stella: In closing, I would like you to tell me what you think we would like to change, in more practical terms, so that in a few years from now we get to talk about a more equal sharing of care among genders in place… And how you’d think CAREdiZO could contribute to that. With what tools, practices, data possibly?

Asimina: First of all, I think a very important step is to open up the discussion around this issue. I bring my personal experience in once more, because when I saw the percentages, the statistics and so on, I was really stunned – not only by the studies that have already been conducted that I was not aware of, but also in terms of perceptions that both women and men hold about the unequal allocation of care. Therefore, an important chapter is to open up the discussion on these issues, to look at different ways of dealing with and sharing care, because that’s also a stake. In theory, one may think “I deal with the house and the children, and the other person deals with work and outside errands,” but is that equal work? And over time, do some of these outside errands just end, while the work at home remains? Now I’m even talking about an elderly couple, where maybe the woman is still the one who cleans, cooks and does everything needed for the house, while taking care of children or relatives, and the man has already completed his working life. Again, I believe it’s very important to open up the discussion, to look at different models, to explore policies and practices which could probably be transferred to very small organisations, but also to larger ones – I don’t know how many policies actually exist in relation to that aspect. Essentially, we need to change the trajectory, I would say, starting off from CAREdiZO to discover something different.

Stella: Super! And that’s why we too are so excited to be a part of this project. When we started discussing this idea, we were very intrigued by the thought that we could approach social awareness around care issues the way Challedu approaches it – through play, knowledge, awareness and mindset shifting. So, we are really happy to be working with you and the other partners from Cyprus, Lithuania and Bulgaria. We will stay with you for several more podcast episodes on CAREdiZO and keep you informed about all the upcoming data, tools and actions that will come out of the project. Thank you very much, and good luck!

Asimina: Thank you very much for having me!

Closing note: What did you think of everything that we shared with Asimina today? What other actions do you think CAREdiZO could develop to bring us one step closer to equality, in and out of the workplace? We are here to read and listen to your suggestions, comments and ideas: follow us on social media, email us, leave a review on Spotify, come and meet us at the WHEN Hub and let’s keep the conversation going… to make WHEN –and CAREdiZO– even better for the benefit of everyone, women and men.