{"id":40521,"date":"2026-09-19T10:17:10","date_gmt":"2026-09-19T07:17:10","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/when.org.gr\/?p=40521"},"modified":"2026-09-19T10:30:18","modified_gmt":"2026-09-19T07:30:18","slug":"when-on-topic-towards-a-culture-of-empathy","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/when.org.gr\/en\/when-on-topic-towards-a-culture-of-empathy\/","title":{"rendered":"WHEN on Topic: Towards a culture of empathy"},"content":{"rendered":"\n<div class=\"text\">\n    <h6 style=\"text-align: center;\">WHEN on Topic: Towards a culture of empathy<\/h6>\n<p>We often talk about <strong>well-being, psychological safety, and a culture of trust<\/strong>. But what does it take for all of these to truly exist in the workplace?<\/p>\n<p>In this episode of WHEN on Topic, <strong>Penelope Theodorakakou<\/strong> <strong>welcomes Dr. Vassilis Kiosses, psychologist, psychotherapist, and PhD in Medicine, and an expert in empathy<\/strong>. Vassilis has developed an <strong>award-winning empathy training programme for healthcare professionals<\/strong>, has spoken at <strong>TEDx events<\/strong>, and is the <strong>author of \u201cEmpathy: Listening with the Heart.\u201d<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>Together, they discuss something that <strong>concerns all of us<\/strong>, employees, employers, and managers alike, but is often treated simply as a \u201csoft skill\u201d: <strong>empathy<\/strong>.<\/p>\n<p>How is empathy <strong>connected to care<\/strong>? What happens when care responsibilities are not a choice, but an obligation that we simply have to \u201cget through\u201d? And how can empathy <strong>change the way we listen, collaborate, and lead<\/strong>?<\/p>\n<p>In the <strong>16th episode of WHEN on Topic<\/strong>, produced as part of the <strong><a href=\"https:\/\/when.org.gr\/en\/caredizo-care-is-everyones-responsibility\/\">CAREdiZO<\/a><\/strong> project, we explore:<\/p>\n<ul>\n<li>Why is empathy not simply a technique or a tool, but a way of relating to the people around us?<\/li>\n<li>How does it influence trust, psychological safety, productivity, and innovation?<\/li>\n<li>What does it mean to see an employee as a whole person, rather than simply as a worker?<\/li>\n<li>How can we listen and show understanding without losing our boundaries?<\/li>\n<li>Where is the line between a human-centred workplace and a culture of \u201cwe\u2019re all one family\u201d?<\/li>\n<li>And how can small businesses and small organisations build a culture of empathy and care, without compromising expectations or professional boundaries?<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<p>A conversation about <strong>care, empathy, boundaries, conflict, and belonging,<\/strong>\u00a0and about how we can create workplaces where people <strong>feel safe to speak up, ask for what they need, and bring their ideas to the table<\/strong>.<\/p>\n<p>This episode was also inspired by the idea of <strong>Nikoleta Roussaki, a WHEN volunteer<\/strong>, whom we warmly thank for the inspiration and for her contribution to the WHEN on Topic podcast texts.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n\n\n<figure class=\"wp-block-embed is-type-rich is-provider-spotify wp-block-embed-spotify wp-embed-aspect-21-9 wp-has-aspect-ratio\"><div class=\"wp-block-embed__wrapper\">\n<iframe title=\"Spotify Embed: WHEN on Topic: \u0393\u03b9\u03b1 \u03bc\u03b9\u03b1 \u03ba\u03bf\u03c5\u03bb\u03c4\u03bf\u03cd\u03c1\u03b1 \u03b5\u03bd\u03c3\u03c5\u03bd\u03b1\u03af\u03c3\u03b8\u03b7\u03c3\u03b7\u03c2\" style=\"border-radius: 12px\" width=\"100%\" height=\"152\" frameborder=\"0\" allowfullscreen allow=\"autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; fullscreen; picture-in-picture\" loading=\"lazy\" src=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/embed\/episode\/3OAUG9DQtOaYBdFlF2pIZ9?si=54b1e18b8d5c47e3&amp;utm_source=oembed\"><\/iframe>\n<\/div><\/figure>\n\n\n<section id=\"nvm-faq-block_c758f1472401d4fa3a9253ac93591bd7\" class=\"nvm-faq alignfull\">\r\n    <div class=\"panel panel-width-normal\">\r\n        <div class=\"row small-align-self-center\">\r\n                                        <div class=\"small-column-100 laptop-margin-10 laptop-column-80 small-align-self-center\">\r\n                    <div class=\"faq-wrapper\">\r\n                        <h2 class=\"title color-onyx\">Read the podcast<\/h2>\r\n                                                    <div class=\"faq-container\">\r\n                                                                    <div class=\"responsiville-accordion\">\r\n                                        <div class=\"responsiville-accordion-panel\">\r\n                                            <div class=\"responsiville-accordion-header color-onyx\">\r\n                                                WHEN on Topic \u2013 Episode 16 | Towards a culture of empathy                                            <\/div>\r\n                                            <div class=\"responsiville-accordion-content\">\r\n                                                <div class=\"text\">\r\n                                                    \n<div class=\"text\">\n    <p><strong>Penelope<\/strong>: Welcome to WHEN on Topic. I\u2019m Penelope Theodorakakou, and I\u2019m back with you once again to talk about women\u2019s professional and economic empowerment and equality at work, and sometimes beyond work as well. This season of our podcast is dedicated to care responsibilities and their equal distribution, and it comes to you thanks to CAREdiZO.<\/p>\n<p>What is CAREdiZO? It is a project in which we participate as part of the European Commission\u2019s CERV programme, which aims to bridge the gender gap in care responsibilities by promoting equality practices at home, in very small businesses and in small civil society organisations. The project supports family-friendly policies, encourages men to participate in care, and highlights the value of care in society more broadly \u2014 essentially everything we have been advocating for all this time.<\/p>\n<p>Our other project partners are from Cyprus, Lithuania and Bulgaria, and they are currently creating their own podcasts as well, which you may have the chance to discover in the near future.<\/p>\n<p>In this episode, I\u2019m joined by Vassilis Kiosses, a psychologist and Doctor of Medicine, and we talk about something that concerns all of us, employees, employers and managers, but that we rarely name as something \u201cessential\u201d in the workplace: empathy.<\/p>\n<p>And about how the presence of empathy\u00a0 -that little word- or its absence, determines whether a workplace can truly support the people who make it what it is.<\/p>\n<p>And I\u2019d like to make a special mention here of one of the organisation\u2019s volunteers, Nicoletta Roussaki, whose idea this episode was: to talk about empathy and the role it plays in the workplace. Nicoletta is the person who supports us with creating the transcripts of these episodes, in Greek and in relation to translation. Just as she did with the transcripts of all the previous episodes, she gave us this idea as well.<\/p>\n<p>Vassilis, when I think of empathy, I think of you. And many other things, but I think of you. So, welcome, and thank you so much for accepting our invitation.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Vassilis<\/strong>: I\u2019m glad that when you hear \u201cempathy,\u201d you think of me. It means either something has gone very well, or I\u2019ve overdone it. History will tell.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Penelope<\/strong>: History will tell.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Vassilis<\/strong>: It\u2019s good to be here. Thank you for the invitation.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Penelope<\/strong>: It\u2019s good to have you. Would you like to tell us a little more about yourself than what I said?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Vassilis<\/strong>: Sure. So, I\u2019m a psychologist. The main part of my work is psychotherapy; that\u2019s what I do. But I deliberately said \u201cthe main part,\u201d because there are also some other areas that I\u2019ve been actively involved in for many years. One of them is training healthcare professionals in empathy. I\u2019ve developed a training programme around it; that was the focus of my doctoral studies. I\u2019ve been doing it with a lot of love for quite a few years now.<\/p>\n<p>And another part of my work involves interventions in companies and organisations that want to offer something related to emotional intelligence, I would say. And from there, it opens up a whole conversation about what that means for each person and what need they are trying to address.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Penelope<\/strong>: I\u2019m going to go backwards for a moment, because you\u2019ve just created a question for me. You also partly answered it, because you said that your work with healthcare professionals began with your doctoral research. But what is it about this particular field when it comes to empathy?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Vassilis<\/strong>: So, why do we talk about empathy within healthcare? That was actually my whole challenge during my doctoral studies: to prove that this was a conversation worth having. It was perhaps even more difficult than developing the methodology for the programme.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Penelope<\/strong>: Okay, okay.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Vassilis<\/strong>: Because I was in a medical school, surrounded by epidemiologists who were used to speaking in terms of data and numbers, while I was talking about a skill that they usually considered a \u201csoft\u201d skill. But even when we look at the data, the reason we talk about empathy in medicine is that we have an enormous amount of evidence. We have hundreds of studies showing that a healthcare professional\u2019s empathy can affect even the length of a patient\u2019s hospital stay.<\/p>\n<p>It affects diagnosis. An empathetic doctor makes more accurate diagnoses, makes fewer medical errors and orders fewer unnecessary laboratory tests. We have studies showing that a patient with a respiratory condition has fewer asthma attacks. We have better glycated haemoglobin levels in diabetic patients. Even up to two days faster recovery in patients with respiratory infections. There are millions of studies. Millions, that\u2019s an exaggeration. Thousands of studies.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Penelope<\/strong>: Let\u2019s be exaggerated, it\u2019s okay.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Vassilis<\/strong>: And the data are conclusive by now. No one can really dispute it. And this isn\u2019t something new. It\u2019s not by chance that we have Hippocrates from much earlier saying: \u201cListen to your patient, they are telling you the diagnosis. Listen carefully to the patient, they are telling you the diagnosis.\u201d And later there was another, less famous person, not like Hippocrates. Asclepiades, who taught his students that treatment should be quick, painless and empathetic. So we have writings going back to that time that speak precisely about the value of empathy.<\/p>\n<p>That\u2019s in the West, because in the East these things were much more developed. They saw the individual as a person, as a whole, anyway, so they didn\u2019t fragment knowledge in the same way.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Penelope<\/strong>: As I listen to you talk about this, I\u2019m thinking about two things. One is that I want us to hold on to the fact that you were talking to epidemiologists, they were speaking in terms of data, and you were talking about a skill they considered a \u201csoft\u201d skill.<\/p>\n<p>And as soon as you said that, I found myself transported to the environment of a small business or a small organisation, where things are going well or they\u2019re not going well, people leave, people join, we have clients, we don\u2019t have clients. And someone brings up the subject of empathy in a meeting, let\u2019s say. I\u2019m keeping that as a little fantasy for us to discuss later.<\/p>\n<p>But I want us to take a step back. Before empathy, I want you to tell me \u2014 because we\u2019re not two people who\u2026 I mean, I don\u2019t believe that we are\u2026 You are not professional Vassilis and human Vassilis, with a personal life, and those two things being separate. So I want you to tell me, as Vassilis, what is care for you? What does care mean?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Vassilis<\/strong>: Care? Wow. I think care has an addressee and it involves action. That\u2019s what distinguishes it. Care is\u2026 I authorise a part of myself to become a provider, to become a source towards something else. So care has an outward direction, it has an inward direction, but it involves movement, it involves action.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Penelope<\/strong>: And where is empathy in that action? In other words, is empathy part of care?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Vassilis<\/strong>: It is.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Penelope<\/strong>: And how many times have you been asked that question?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Vassilis<\/strong>: Okay, okay. I\u2019ll tell you. You can be empathetic without necessarily caring for someone. You cannot care if you are not empathetic.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Penelope<\/strong>: Or you cannot care effectively? Or you cannot care, period? Is there such a thing as effective care? I don\u2019t know.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Vassilis<\/strong>: Exactly, exactly. Effective care, and effective for whom, ultimately? From whose perspective are we evaluating it? In any case, in order to care, it has to mean something to you. It is an action, a movement that has meaning. You give some meaning to the experience. It means that somehow you connect with a part of yourself in order to be able to provide it. Otherwise, without motivation, we\u2019re not talking about care.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Penelope<\/strong>: Let me challenge that, though. I may not necessarily want to care for a member of my family. My mother, my father, for example, with whom I may have no relationship as an adult, and suddenly I find myself in a position where I have to provide care for them. Why? Because there is no one else. But I have the role of primary caregiver for these people, or I suddenly acquire it. Where is that movement there? I am forced to move in that direction. And if we take this into the professional, the workplace context, that can have a huge consequence for me. I may have to leave work earlier, say no to training programmes, to trips, withdraw from my hobbies, from other activities. Where do I find the motivation there?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Vassilis<\/strong>: That\u2019s not care.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Penelope<\/strong>: What is it, then?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Vassilis<\/strong>: There I\u2019m simply carrying out a task. I\u2019m performing a role. It\u2019s not care. So it isn\u2019t experienced as care. That\u2019s why it\u2019s so burdensome. That\u2019s why it brings up all sorts of issues afterwards, because it is something that isn\u2019t compatible with me. I\u2019m not doing it authentically. I\u2019m simply carrying it out. I\u2019ve been assigned this role, so it divides me, splits me in two.<\/p>\n<p>On the one hand, I don\u2019t want to be there at all. On the other, I feel I have to, perhaps for a moral reason, let\u2019s say. I have taken on this responsibility. And that creates this state of incompatibility. I\u2019m divided in two, and that is a source of anxiety, at best.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Penelope<\/strong>: Do you know why I\u2019m asking you this? Because the truth is that we\u2019ve talked a lot about care throughout this season of the podcast, and it is also something that motivates us as a team. Care is part of the culture and values of the organisation. But sometimes\u2026 you know, sometimes we idealise it. Sorry for the word, I can\u2019t think of a better one.<\/p>\n<p>As if we should provide care effortlessly or lovingly, or because we genuinely want to. Otherwise, I\u2019m not good enough, or I\u2019m doing it out of obligation. Whereas, in reality, I think there is also a middle ground that says: yes, but\u2026<\/p>\n<p><strong>Vassilis<\/strong>: When care is translated into a condition in which I live and am also supposed to be very happy, and it doesn\u2019t cause me any discomfort at all\u2026<\/p>\n<p><strong>Penelope<\/strong>: Yes, yes, yes. And I\u2019m supposed to put up with it, and it\u2019s okay, and it is expected \u2014 especially of women, as the group of the population that we, I would say, are burdened with it. And \u201cburdened\u201d is a very specific word I\u2019m choosing. We don\u2019t choose to be primary caregivers. It is placed on us. It is placed on us because that\u2019s how stereotypes work, because socially we have inherited it as a role. I can\u2019t always do this with movement, and always with love, and always with ease. Nor does that mean it is always just a task I\u2019m carrying out. But I also want us to talk about care as\u2026 We\u2019re going off script now, but that\u2019s okay. Isn\u2019t care sometimes also an obstacle?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Vassilis<\/strong>: Of course it can be an obstacle.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Penelope<\/strong>: Isn\u2019t care an obstacle to movement?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Vassilis<\/strong>: Okay. We need to take a step back and say that a person is made up of different parts. That means different identities, different roles, different needs, and those needs can be heterogeneous and even deeply conflicting with one another. That is also what makes us completely human.<\/p>\n<p>So, having the role of a caregiver, being perfectly okay with it, having given meaning to that experience, does not mean that this role monopolises me, that it is my one and absolute need. Of course it will come into conflict with other parts of myself, and when care prevents those parts from being fulfilled, it will also cause me distress. The point is not to talk about care as if it were the absolute, ultimate good. Or empathy, for that matter, as if it were going to solve all our problems.<\/p>\n<p>Can we see the bigger picture? For me, that has value. Care as a configuration of the self, as we call it in psychotherapy. A configuration, a way of being, I am not only this. Of course, even something very simple: I want to go see a film, I want to see my friends, and today is the only day I can do it. Today is the only day I have.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Penelope<\/strong>: Right.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Vassilis<\/strong>: One of those things won\u2019t happen. It can\u2019t. What does that mean? That I\u2019ll do the other one reluctantly? Maybe I\u2019ll be divided, maybe I\u2019ll think twice about it, maybe, but\u2026 And you know what? That is also what makes us alive.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Penelope<\/strong>: Right, right. I mean, the way you\u2019re putting it helps me, and it brings me to this: say you are an employer, or a manager, and you have a team. And we\u2019re always talking about this because in the CAREdiZO project we are talking about small teams and small organisations. So we\u2019re not thinking about, you know, some huge building somewhere in Marousi in Athens, where all the big companies are, or at least used to be.<\/p>\n<p>We\u2019re thinking about a team like WHEN, which has ten people. How\u2026 and before I get to the how, this team also consists of people who provide care, who have care responsibilities, who have these internal conflicts we were talking about earlier. So what does empathy look like in the workplace? And what happens when a management team practises empathy? I don\u2019t know if that\u2019s the right verb, applies it? I don\u2019t know. You\u2019ll tell me. And what doesn\u2019t happen?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Vassilis<\/strong>: Okay. I\u2019ll take another step back and say that, in order to start this conversation, we need to make sure that we believe it is worth the effort. Why discuss it if we\u2019re not sure why? Why are we talking about empathy in the workplace? Or how can I be empathetic? I prefer \u201cI am empathetic\u201d to \u201cI show empathy,\u201d because the latter\u2026<\/p>\n<p><strong>Penelope<\/strong>: Or \u201cI practise it,\u201d let\u2019s say.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Vassilis<\/strong>: Or \u201cI practise it,\u201d yes, yes. Because that makes it technical and takes away some of its value. So for me, we need to start with \u201cwhy.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Penelope<\/strong>: Perfect. I\u2019ll tell you why. I read it somewhere.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Vassilis<\/strong>: Okay.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Penelope<\/strong>: Because I went to a training and they told me I probably need to do it because it\u2019s a buzzword, because I saw it on LinkedIn.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Vassilis<\/strong>: Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Penelope<\/strong>: That.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Vassilis<\/strong>: And because it\u2019s good to have empathy, right? It\u2019s better than not having it.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Penelope<\/strong>: Right.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Vassilis<\/strong>: Because it\u2019s good.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Penelope<\/strong>: But I don\u2019t know what it is, what I\u2019m supposed to do, how much priority I should give this skill. Should I have it? Should I be it? Should employees have it? I don\u2019t know anything. Where do I start?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Vassilis<\/strong>: Exactly. I don\u2019t know anything. I only know that it\u2019s a very clich\u00e9d word, that we hear it everywhere, and that we know it\u2019s good to have. I think that\u2019s where we need to intervene first.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Penelope<\/strong>: Go on.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Vassilis<\/strong>: The fact that it\u2019s not simply a \u201cgood skill.\u201d That sounds almost romantic. Come on, let\u2019s all be empathetic, because we\u2019re romantic people and we have a humanistic perspective out there. Let\u2019s look at the studies and see what they say, especially in business, especially in corporate environments. Empathy from managers towards their employees, in sales, customer service, customer care, across the board, is associated with higher sales, greater productivity, more innovation. Employees feel more comfortable expressing themselves freely, and that brings more ideas. And greater enjoyment and satisfaction, both with their work and with collaboration. So we need to keep in mind that when we talk about empathy, we are essentially talking about relationships. I don\u2019t want to describe it as a good tool that I\u2019ll use when things get difficult.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Penelope<\/strong>: That observation is very important.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Vassilis<\/strong>: It\u2019s a way of being. It\u2019s the way I exist, the way I show up and the way I relate. If I\u2019m interested in building relationships of trust in which I don\u2019t want my employees to be afraid, but rather to feel comfortable, that can only be a good thing. And it will be beneficial in terms of innovation, creativity, productivity, sales. That is not up for debate. We have all the studies. It\u2019s not negotiable. That\u2019s how it is.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Penelope<\/strong>: That\u2019s how it is. It\u2019s a fact. End of story.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Vassilis<\/strong>: Yes, yes, yes. So, to come back to your question, what do I actually do? What can this mean in practice, especially with people who have these kinds of roles? And let me tell you something: not only that.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Penelope<\/strong>: I agree. And you separated the two without me having to intervene, because that\u2019s how I started the question. But indeed, now we\u2019re talking about something that needs to be a way of being, and it has nothing to do with whether people have care responsibilities or not. It\u2019s for everybody.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Vassilis<\/strong>: And you know what? It\u2019s about seeing the person who works in my organisation, in my company, as a whole person and not only as an employee. And why do we say this? Because it changes the way I approach them. It\u2019s enough to know that the people who are here, working with me or for me, have different starting points. Empathy helps me understand that each person has different potential, a different starting point, different resources, different reserves. And that\u2019s not so that I can lower my expectations of their work.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Penelope<\/strong>: That\u2019s perfect.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Vassilis<\/strong>: Not so that I lower what I ask of them or the boundaries I set, but because it changes my perspective. It\u2019s one thing to say, \u201cWhy were you late?\u201d and another to say, \u201cWhat happened that made you late?\u201d It\u2019s one thing to say, \u201cYou\u2019ve been doing terribly this past week,\u201d and another to say, \u201cYou know what, I see that you\u2019re distracted, I see that something is weighing on you. Is there something you want to talk about? Is there something on your mind?\u201d What does that say? It says I move away from evaluation and create a bridge where I am interested in listening. And if I listen to you, I then look at how I can respond. And most of the time, I don\u2019t need to do something for you. I simply need to give you space to reflect on what might help you. And I can facilitate that in whatever way I can.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Penelope<\/strong>: If I can, as long as I can.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Vassilis<\/strong>: If I can, and in whatever way I can. But what does empathy do? It creates a framework, it creates an environment in which an employee is not afraid, does not operate out of fear. Decisions made out of fear are very different from decisions made out of understanding. That makes a huge difference. It creates an entire culture. Not being afraid to speak up in a meeting because I know someone will listen to me. How many ideas are lost because someone didn\u2019t feel comfortable speaking?<\/p>\n<p>How many really important solutions were there, but were never voiced by people who didn\u2019t feel that their voice would be heard, or who were afraid they would be belittled? And if I add one more thing: the biggest conflicts that happen inside companies don\u2019t come from people who don\u2019t know how to collaborate. They come from people who feel they won\u2019t get a fair hearing.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Penelope<\/strong>: Ah, another favourite topic.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Vassilis<\/strong>: Who feel they won\u2019t be heard. That is what creates rupture. Being there with a willingness to listen reduces irritability. It reduces tension.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Penelope<\/strong>: And the sense of injustice.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Vassilis<\/strong>: First of all, I belong. It makes me feel that I belong. If I\u2019m there, I feel that I belong. If I feel that I don\u2019t belong, I have no reason to invest in you. And if we look at the logistics of it, when I feel that I belong, I\u2019ll stay longer, commit more, dedicate myself more, produce more. Otherwise, I\u2019ll leave.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Penelope<\/strong>: You said two very important things. I\u2019ll start with the first, which is that we need to see the person not only as an employee who works with or for us, but as an individual. And I\u2019m very afraid of something here. I\u2019ll say it again: this is my question. Is there a risk that I cross the person\u2019s boundaries? I mean what we often hear in Greek businesses: \u201cBut we\u2019re all one family. Tell me what\u2019s going on with you.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Vassilis<\/strong>: laughs<\/p>\n<p><strong>Penelope<\/strong>: Exactly. So that\u2019s one important thing you said, and I want us to discuss it. It made me wonder: how do we avoid crossing that boundary? And the other thing I want us to stay with for a little longer is this. You saw me smile when you said it. How do we operate like this, with openness, asking effective questions, moving away from evaluation, while also maintaining boundaries Because, okay, we also have a job to do. I say this because when I talk to people who run small businesses and small organisations, this is something that worries us. Because we are always small teams, and what happens in small teams? A few people do a lot of things. And there\u2019s this, it\u2019s not exactly fear, but there\u2019s this anxiety about not being too soft. Or about not crossing the line and getting too close, when you, as an employee, don\u2019t actually need to get close to me. Why would you?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Vassilis<\/strong>: Okay, okay. Wow, there\u2019s a lot there. I want to say something first. There is nothing soft about soft skills.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Penelope<\/strong>: Say that again.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Vassilis<\/strong>: There is nothing soft.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Penelope<\/strong>: We\u2019re putting that in bold in the episode.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Vassilis<\/strong>: Seriously. It\u2019s the difficult path. The easy path is to be sharp, demanding, rigid, sometimes even a bully, to belittle people. It\u2019s easy. It\u2019s not difficult. It requires no investment. I keep my distance, I demand, I\u2019m a killer. There is nothing soft about it. And do you know why I say there is nothing soft about empathy? Because empathy contains a lot of vulnerability. And you\u2019re right to bring up boundaries. Empathy is, first of all, a choice. I choose. It\u2019s impossible to have empathy towards everything, towards everyone, towards every situation. It\u2019s not possible. That would be extremely taxing for our nervous system. It can\u2019t happen. So we also need to keep in mind that we usually show empathy towards things with which we have some familiarity.<\/p>\n<p>On the other hand, precisely because it is a vulnerable choice, we need to know where our limits are. How far are we okay going? Because I can have every good intention in the world and come closer, see how you are, what you need, listen to you, or genuinely create that space to listen to you. But sometimes I may have absolutely no reserves left to do that, and protecting myself may be the most protective thing I can do. And I need to know that.<\/p>\n<p>I\u2019m saying this more to take away some of the guilt around those moments when someone may think, \u201cOh, I didn\u2019t do it right. I didn\u2019t show enough empathy. I didn\u2019t do well.\u201d That will happen too, and that\u2019s okay. And empathy also has darker sides. It can even become a tool for manipulation.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Penelope<\/strong>: Ah, say that again.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Vassilis<\/strong>: Someone can instrumentalise it, use it precisely for that reason. So I come back to this. It is one thing to say that, because of my willingness and intention to understand you and tune into where you are, I lower my expectations. And in a small organisation, precisely because I can. Proximity is different. Relationships are different. What I can focus on there is the idea of alliance. You know what? I understand that you had to do this, you were delayed, it has fallen behind. This needs to be done by the end of the day. What can we do? What do you think we can do? I\u2019m not there as the saviour, giving instructions.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Penelope<\/strong>: And solutions and everything else.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Vassilis<\/strong>: Exactly. But I\u2019m there to make that invitation, to ask the open question: \u201cYou know what? I understand. You\u2019ll need to find a way to get this done.\u201d I remember something very clearly, and I\u2019ll give this example. When I started training in psychotherapy after my studies, it was a programme of around 800 hours, lasting three years and something, and we had training weekends. At some point I was going to miss one. We had very few absences we were allowed to take. Obviously.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Penelope<\/strong>: Yes, obviously.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Vassilis<\/strong>: And something was going to happen. I think my sister was waiting to give birth. And I was trying to decide whether I would miss the weekend when she gave birth or not. So I went to discuss it with one of my teachers, assuming she would tell me, \u201cOkay, no problem, don\u2019t come.\u201d And she said to me, very calmly and with a lot of understanding:<\/p>\n<p>\u201cWhat a beautiful moment. You want to be there, you want to be close to her. You\u2019ll need to decide what you\u2019re going to do because there is also the issue of your absence. Evaluate it.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>I didn\u2019t feel like she had backed me into a corner. But she gave me the full picture. And she said, \u201cIt\u2019s wonderful, perfect, you want to be there. But we also have this here. There is a specific number of absences, and because we still have a long way to go, think about it.\u201d She didn\u2019t say yes or no. She told me the responsibility was mine. I went to the class as normal.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Penelope<\/strong>: Did your sister give birth that weekend?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Vassilis<\/strong>: No, no, no. It would have been for nothing, yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Penelope<\/strong>: Your absence would have been for nothing.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Vassilis<\/strong>: My absence would have been for nothing, yes. But what I want to say is that it didn\u2019t undermine our relationship, but neither did she lower her standards by saying, \u201cCome on, I\u2019ll do you a favour.\u201d Because we\u2019re not talking about favours. Nor are we talking about politeness. And we should say that, right?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Penelope<\/strong>: Very important. Let\u2019s make that distinction. Yes, yes, yes, let\u2019s make that distinction because sometimes we think, \u201cOh, so what does this mean?\u201d So, empathy means that tomorrow, now, on Tuesday, I have to go to school, I don\u2019t know why I was going to say school, I have to go to work and be polite. And okay, if I\u2019m polite, then we\u2019re done, right?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Vassilis<\/strong>: Yes, politeness is nice. I\u2019m a polite person. I like polite people. I like us to be polite to everyone out there. No, it\u2019s not that at all. Politeness can be a kind of performative empathy. It can. It could. But no, that\u2019s not what it is. It is an opening I make within myself to listen and make room for how the other person is showing up. Maybe we should also say what empathy actually is.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Penelope<\/strong>: Go on.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Vassilis<\/strong>: Because I\u2019m sure we\u2019re all using the same word, but we don\u2019t all mean exactly the same thing.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Penelope<\/strong>: Let\u2019s establish a shared vocabulary for this podcast.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Vassilis<\/strong>: Exactly.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Penelope<\/strong>: And generally.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Vassilis<\/strong>: Exactly, exactly, exactly. So, empathy is not saying, \u201cI understand you.\u201d It\u2019s not. It\u2019s not compassion. It\u2019s not agreement. It\u2019s not unconditionally accepting what you tell me. It\u2019s not. It\u2019s not any of those things. It\u2019s not pity.<\/p>\n<p>Empathy is what we mean when we say \u201cputting myself in your shoes,\u201d but people often think that means understanding you. Understanding you is a cognitive process. It\u2019s a process of the mind. Understanding what you\u2019re thinking. But empathy is also allowing myself, for a moment, to move emotionally as if I were you.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Penelope<\/strong>: Give us an example in the workplace.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Vassilis<\/strong>: An example in the workplace. You know what? It\u2019s not something different in the workplace. It\u2019s the same thing.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Penelope<\/strong>: Yes, yes, yes, yes, okay.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Vassilis<\/strong>: You come to me and say, \u201cI\u2019m at my limit. I\u2019m exhausted. I have this going on, that has happened.\u201d As I\u2019m listening to you, how am I? As I\u2019m listening to you, can I pause for a moment, put my own story to one side, and make room for yours? You\u2019re asking me for an example, and I find myself not knowing how to describe it, because it\u2019s a skill that is experienced.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Penelope<\/strong>: Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. I understand.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Vassilis<\/strong>: I mean, how do you see a frightened person and suddenly your eyes widen? How do you see someone trip in the street and suddenly move your torso backwards to protect yourself, or pull yourself in? What is that? That is our nervous system being activated precisely because of empathy. It\u2019s being able, in that moment, to enter into it, to see what it is like, how you feel right now. You come to me and say, \u201cI have this problem, and this, and this, and this.\u201d Beyond what you\u2019re telling me, beyond the description, the narrative, how does this person feel about it? They\u2019re angry. Can I share that feeling? Can I share in their anger? And why am I saying this? Because inside ourselves, we very easily evaluate what we see. We automatically evaluate it as right, wrong, excessive, too much, dramatic.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Penelope<\/strong>: That\u2019s what I was going to say. We evaluate it based on what we would feel ourselves. So, if you come to me and say, \u201cI have so many deadlines, I can\u2019t cope, don\u2019t give me another project,\u201d I may try to empathise with what you\u2019re telling me. But it\u2019s also very likely that, as a manager or the owner of a small business, I\u2019ll say, \u201cWhat are you talking about? Do you know what I have on my plate?\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Vassilis<\/strong>: Exactly.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Penelope<\/strong>: And there is no empathy at all.\u00a0And I\u2019ll experience what you\u2019re telling me based either on what is happening to me or on what I would do in your position.\u00a0\u201cYou know how many hardships I had at your age? How much work I did? Or you can\u2019t handle a difficult client?\u201d I don\u2019t know.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Vassilis<\/strong>: \u201cI used to walk two hours to get to school.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Penelope<\/strong>: \u201cAnd carry my own water,\u201d etc., etc.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Vassilis<\/strong>: Exactly, exactly.\u00a0You know what?\u00a0We struggle because it\u2019s difficult for us to approach another person\u2019s hardship. And we want to do something about it. Whether that is good or bad, history will tell. But this devaluation; \u201cOh, I had more to do,\u201d this dismissal of \u201cOh, I know what really difficult things are\u201d, happens because we struggle to approach the other person\u2019s anxiety, their pain.<\/p>\n<p>Sometimes other emotions too, happier ones. But it serves ourselves. It doesn\u2019t serve the company, the organisation, anything, or the other person. It serves ourselves. \u201cI\u2019ll feel better.\u201d It sounds selfish. It may be, and we may do it completely unconsciously, without any awareness of what we are doing in that moment.<\/p>\n<p>So, if I want to have an empathetic stance, I would suggest that before I respond, I take a small pause. I gain that moment of reaction time. And in that small pause, I ask myself: how does the other person who is speaking to me right now feel about what they are describing to me? How do they feel? Before I move to the practicalities, before I move to what needs to be done. How are they? If I reflect that back to them in that moment. If you come to me and say, \u201cVassilis, I have to do this by the end of the day, and I have this, and the phone rang, and then that happened.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Before I start suggesting solutions, if I sit for a moment and say: \u201cWow, Penelope, you must be freaking out, right? It sounds like a lot. How are you? It\u2019s a lot. I\u2019m listening to you and I\u2019m getting anxious just listening to you.\u201d And you say to me, \u201cYes, yes, I\u2019m freaking out. That\u2019s exactly it.\u201d Okay, let\u2019s see. Let\u2019s see what we can do. It\u2019s not that it will solve our problems or\u2026<\/p>\n<p><strong>Penelope<\/strong>: No. We\u2019ll pick up the thread from a different starting point, which may be more effective. So as not to say \u201csofter.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Vassilis<\/strong>: It will give you the message that you\u2019re not alone. That alone brings relief. Knowing that, at the very least, there is someone here who understands me. But the relief comes from understanding. It doesn\u2019t come from solutions. Because solutions can come without any understanding at all. So the next day I\u2019ll go back to work still believing that I\u2019m going to collaborate with people who don\u2019t understand me. Even if they give me very good instructions about what I need to do.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Penelope<\/strong>: To solve the problem or the challenge or whatever it is.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Vassilis<\/strong>: Our relationships hurt us. Relationships, whatever kind they are, hurt us. And relief from that pain comes through relationships. So professional relationships are relationships too.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Penelope<\/strong>: Absolutely.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Vassilis<\/strong>: We\u2019re not family. We don\u2019t want more families. We have one, and we\u2019re already trying to manage it. We don\u2019t need a second one. But precisely because these are relationships, because we show up with many different parts of ourselves, we need to think about what we want those relationships to be like.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Penelope<\/strong>: And you\u2019re giving me a very nice opening to say this. I\u2019m listening to this episode after it goes live. I\u2019m listening to the episode. I\u2019m having coffee with five people and I say, \u201cOkay, Vassilis made some good points. He really did.\u201d But I can\u2019t see myself doing it. I mean, I\u2019m probably, as someone who has listened to this, more likely to judge, or jump in to offer a solution, or just rush.<\/p>\n<p>So I want to turn some of these things into actions, somehow bring them into the team and start developing this culture of empathy, and therefore care, more intentionally. So, okay, one thing: I\u2019ll pause. Someone from customer service comes to me and says, \u201cI can\u2019t cope with this and that, and the shifts are difficult,\u201d and I\u2019ll pause before responding. Okay. What else?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Vassilis<\/strong>: Listen. Listen. The pause is good. But listen. Listen while keeping in mind not to get triggered while you\u2019re listening. Because if I get triggered, if I feel personally offended, then it will be difficult for me to listen. Someone comes to me, I invite people to come to me, and I say, \u201cOkay, come on. I see you. We\u2019ve been working together for so long. I want to hear how you are, what\u2019s going on, what would make your work easier, what is difficult for you at work, what you would like to be different.\u201d Without that meaning that I am now committing to everything that everyone tells me\u2026<\/p>\n<p><strong>Penelope<\/strong>: That I\u2019m going to fix it, take care of it, solve everything.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Vassilis<\/strong>: Exactly. But I\u2019m opening up this space that says: I\u2019m interested in listening, I\u2019m interested in understanding. Can I have that?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Penelope<\/strong>: So, dedicate time to listening. That\u2019s what it is.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Vassilis<\/strong>: Dedicate time to listen. So the pause comes after I listen. And I pause in order to avoid judging immediately. Because if I call you in, I have my small business, and I say, \u201cOkay, I listened to the podcast, and that guy said, let\u2019s listen.\u201d And I go to my employees and say, \u201cOkay, what\u2019s going on?\u201d \u201cYes, we have too much work and we can\u2019t keep up.\u201d \u201cYes, but don\u2019t I pay you well? Aren\u2019t you paid more than\u2026?\u201d You can listen without adding a \u201cyes, but.\u201d Then I pause and reflect. What are they telling me? What is it? But without getting triggered. It requires attention. But I also understand the people who manage a company. It\u2019s their child, it\u2019s their vision, it\u2019s something they\u2019ve built. And it\u2019s difficult when someone challenges it. It will probably hurt. If I take it personally, I can\u2019t listen. But if I see it as an opportunity, because I want us to function even better, then it\u2019s worth the effort.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Penelope<\/strong>: So, I listen. Time to listen. A pause while I\u2019m listening. And I would add: we practise this skill.\u00a0Because it is a skill. Not taking personally what comes to us as feedback. Unless it actually is personal. \u201cYou\u2019re treating me badly,\u201d for example. But generally, not taking it personally. And I would also add, from the employer\u2019s side, not promising that I will fix it, that I\u2019m here to listen and that tomorrow I\u2019ll make everything different.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Vassilis<\/strong>: Exactly. Don\u2019t promise.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Penelope<\/strong>: But also set a\u2026 I don\u2019t know what it is. It\u2019s not exactly a boundary. A level where I say, okay, I hear you. Because isn\u2019t that also a little dangerous, Vassilis? To say, okay, I\u2019ll listen to you, I\u2019ll pause. But tomorrow morning everything is exactly the same and nothing has changed. So how do I know that we\u2019re actually working towards a situation where things change? That I didn\u2019t just listen so that you could later tell your friends, \u201cWow, this team has amazing empathy. They listened to us, you know.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Vassilis<\/strong>: Yes, they listened to us. I think the people listening to this episode right now probably want to see what they can do. They probably want to know how they will move forward the next day. And you know what? Sometimes an employer doesn\u2019t have all the answers, nor all the solutions. And that\u2019s okay. But I can say, \u201cYou know what? I care about looking at this. It\u2019s difficult for me right now. If you have an idea, tell me. I\u2019ll keep it in mind. I can\u2019t commit to anything. But I want to make this as easy for you as possible. As manageable as it can be. How can we help?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Because, really, I may not be able to promise someone outside that I can stop the rain. But I can say, \u201cYou know what? I do care that you don\u2019t get wet. I\u2019ll see if I have an umbrella.\u201d I can\u2019t promise that the rain will stop. Nor that the umbrella will protect you 100% from the rain. But the fact that I\u2019m here and I\u2019ve listened to you definitely puts me on the same side as you. We\u2019re not opposite each other.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Penelope<\/strong>: We\u2019re not opposite each other. We\u2019re alongside each other. I\u2019m almost going to close with that. I want to make a full circle and return almost to my first question, which was: what does care mean to you? And because this whole conversation revolves around empathy, but empathy also revolves around care and is part of care, my final question is\u2026 And this is something we\u2019ve discussed a lot throughout this season.<\/p>\n<p>How do we, as a society, and I\u2019m moving beyond small organisations and small companies now, I\u2019m talking about society, learn to value and reward care? So that it\u2019s not something you simply have to do, \u201cit\u2019s okay, what else are we going to do?\u201d, or something invisible. So that it isn\u2019t treated as a virtue, or as something sacred.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Vassilis<\/strong>: So that we don\u2019t turn caregivers into heroes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Penelope<\/strong>: Yes, yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Vassilis<\/strong>: Let\u2019s move away from that. This is entirely a matter of culture. It\u2019s very Greek, very Balkan, this idea of care.\u00a0You know what I\u2019m thinking?\u00a0How can this shift? It will shift.\u00a0What is society?\u00a0We are society.\u00a0It starts with our internal inclination.\u00a0I don\u2019t know if I have exactly the answer, but I\u2019m thinking about how I relate to myself, how I keep this in mind.<\/p>\n<p>What does my own belief system say about this? But don\u2019t we do the same with stereotypes? Don\u2019t we do the same with gender discrimination? We don\u2019t change those things somewhere \u201cout there.\u201d\u00a0We choose how we ourselves will shift.\u00a0 Through our own reflection. Through the way we deconstruct these identities, little by little. To validate one value and deconstruct another.<\/p>\n<p>Yes, the fact that this conversation is happening. The fact that we are having this dialogue now. That we are putting, that you have put, care at the centre, trying to approach it from every possible angle. That is a movement. It\u2019s an important movement. It\u2019s not a small thing. I mean\u2026 yes, we have reached this point. The heroine, this or that. Let\u2019s recognise exhaustion. Let\u2019s recognise fatigue. Let\u2019s recognise that nothing should be taken for granted.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Penelope<\/strong>: It\u2019s not a given.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Vassilis<\/strong>: Nothing is a given. And perhaps that is where we can offer some validation. Some additional validation of what is happening.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Penelope<\/strong>: We\u2019ll close with that. Thank you so, so, so much for this conversation.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Vassilis<\/strong>: Thank you too.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Penelope<\/strong>: What did you think of what Vassilis and I shared today? What else do you think CAREdiZO could create that would bring us one step closer to equality, both within and beyond the workplace?<\/p>\n<p>We\u2019re here to read and listen to your suggestions, comments and ideas.<\/p>\n<p>Follow us on social media.<\/p>\n<p>Send us an email.<\/p>\n<p>Leave us a review on Spotify.<\/p>\n<p>Come and meet us at WHEN Hub.<\/p>\n<p>And let\u2019s continue the conversation so that we can make WHEN, and CAREdiZO, even better for everyone.<\/p>\n<\/div>                                                <\/div>\r\n                                            <\/div>\r\n                                        <\/div>\r\n                                    <\/div>\r\n                                                            <\/div>\r\n                                                                    <\/div>\r\n                <\/div>\r\n                    <\/div>\r\n    <\/div>\r\n<\/section>\n\n\n<div class=\"text\">\n    <p style=\"text-align: center;\"><b>The WHEN on Topic Podcast is available on all major platforms!<\/b><\/p>\n<p style=\"text-align: center;\">You can listen to all episodes on any platform you listen to your podcasts on \u2013 we are on\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/09iNBpLA8e3zfkAMZBVqyi\"><b>Spotify<\/b><\/a>,\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/www.buzzsprout.com\/1924253\/listings\/3126301\/edit\"><b>Buzzsprout<\/b><\/a>,\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/podcasts.google.com\/feed\/aHR0cDovL2ZlZWRzLmxpYnN5bi5jb20vMjQzNDEzL3Jzcw?hl=en-GR\"><b>Google podcasts<\/b><\/a>\u00a0&amp;\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/podcast\/id1496502155\"><b>Apple podcasts<\/b><\/a>,\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/www.audible.com\/pd\/Women-On-Topic-Podcast\/B09VG1JD3R?\"><b>Amazon music<\/b><\/a>,\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/pca.st\/5qc63x16\"><b>Pocket Casts<\/b><\/a>,\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/podcastaddict.com\/podcast\/3795610\"><b>Podcast Addict<\/b><\/a>, and of course on\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/blacklemon.tv\/podcasts\/women-topic\/\"><b>Black Lemon<\/b><\/a><b>\u2018<\/b>s platform.<\/p>\n<hr \/>\n<p style=\"text-align: center;\">The\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/caredizo.eu\/\"><b>CAREdiZO<\/b><\/a>\u00a0project is implemented in the framework of the European Commission\u2019s CERV Programme, as a cooperation among the\u00a0 following organisations: Challedu (Greece), WHEN (Greece), MOTERU INFORMACIJOS CENTRAS (Lithuania), NATSIONALNA MREZHA ZA BIZNES RAZVITIE (Bulgaria), Mediterranean Institute of Gender Studies (Cyprus). The project is funded by the European Union. The views and opinions expressed are, nonetheless, solely those of the authors and do not necessarily reflect those of the European Commission-EU. Neither the European Union nor the European Commission is responsible for them. Project code: 101191047 \u2013 CAREdiZO \u2013 CERV-2024-GE.<\/p>\n<\/div>","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>In this episode of WHEN on Topic, Penelope Theodorakakou welcomes Dr. Vassilis Kiosses, psychologist, psychotherapist, and PhD in Medicine, and an expert in empathy. Together, they discuss something that concerns all of us, employees, employers, and managers alike, but is often treated simply as a \u201csoft skill\u201d: empathy.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":19,"featured_media":40522,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"footnotes":""},"categories":[437,385,460],"tags":[],"class_list":["post-40521","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-european-programs","category-nea-en","category-when-on-topic"],"acf":[],"yoast_head":"<!-- This site is optimized with the Yoast SEO plugin v28.7 - https:\/\/yoast.com\/product\/yoast-seo-wordpress\/ -->\n<title>WHEN on Topic: Towards a culture of empathy &#8226; WHEN<\/title>\n<meta name=\"description\" content=\"In this episode of WHEN on Topic, Penelope Theodorakakou welcomes Dr. Vassilis Kiosses, psychologist, psychotherapist, and PhD in Medicine, and an expert in empathy. 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