{"id":38107,"date":"2025-11-04T09:58:08","date_gmt":"2025-11-04T07:58:08","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/when.org.gr\/?p=38107"},"modified":"2026-04-21T17:22:39","modified_gmt":"2026-04-21T14:22:39","slug":"how-to-overturn-traditional-roles-in-caregiving","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/when.org.gr\/en\/how-to-overturn-traditional-roles-in-caregiving\/","title":{"rendered":"WHEN on Topic: How to overturn traditional roles in caregiving?"},"content":{"rendered":"\n<div class=\"text\">\n    <p style=\"text-align: center;\"><strong>How to overturn traditional roles in caregiving?<\/strong><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">In the new episode of When on Topic, <strong>Penelope Theodorakakou<\/strong> holds an open discussion with <strong>Popi Sevastou<\/strong> and <strong>Mina Habip<\/strong> &#8211; a couple of women and parents of little Alkis \u2013 about how traditional roles around <strong>caregiving<\/strong> are changing and how their <strong>daily lives<\/strong> are shaped.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Together, we explore their sharing of <strong>daily responsibilities<\/strong>, the support they get from their <strong>community and network<\/strong>, and the <strong>obstacles and stereotypes<\/strong> they face &#8211; from <strong>legal processes<\/strong>, such as adoption and second parent recognition, to <strong>everyday challenges<\/strong> in work and life. We talk about empathy, practical issues, and all the small but important changes that make caregiving more fair, equitable, and inclusive for all families.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">In the sixth episode of the WHEN on Topic series, which is implemented within the framework of the <a href=\"https:\/\/when.org.gr\/en\/caredizo-care-is-everyones-responsibility\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\"><strong>CAREdiZO<\/strong><\/a>\u00a0project, we ask important questions:<\/span><\/p>\n<ul>\n<li style=\"font-weight: 400;\" aria-level=\"1\"><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">What are the <strong>differences<\/strong> between how we imagine ourselves as parents before and after having a child?<\/span><\/li>\n<li style=\"font-weight: 400;\" aria-level=\"1\"><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">What are the <strong>stereotypes<\/strong> that a couple of two mothers encounter from their environment, but also at an institutional level?<\/span><\/li>\n<li style=\"font-weight: 400;\" aria-level=\"1\"><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Which <strong>rules of caregiving<\/strong> do we need to rewrite from scratch?<\/span><\/li>\n<li style=\"font-weight: 400;\" aria-level=\"1\"><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Which people or which kind of support networks make <strong>everyday life<\/strong> possible?<\/span><\/li>\n<li style=\"font-weight: 400;\" aria-level=\"1\"><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">How do we <strong>balance<\/strong> work and the demands of caregiving, and what has helped or made it difficult for us to do so?<\/span><\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">An episode full of <strong>truths, joys, challenges and optimism<\/strong> about how new generations learn to grow up in a world where <strong>caregiving and equality can coexist<\/strong>.<\/span><\/p>\n<\/div>\n\n\n<figure class=\"wp-block-embed is-type-rich is-provider-spotify wp-block-embed-spotify wp-embed-aspect-21-9 wp-has-aspect-ratio\"><div class=\"wp-block-embed__wrapper\">\n<iframe title=\"Spotify Embed: WHEN on Topic: \u03a0\u03ce\u03c2 \u03b1\u03bd\u03b1\u03c4\u03c1\u03ad\u03c0\u03bf\u03bd\u03c4\u03b1\u03b9 \u03bf\u03b9 \u03c0\u03b1\u03c1\u03b1\u03b4\u03bf\u03c3\u03b9\u03b1\u03ba\u03bf\u03af \u03c1\u03cc\u03bb\u03bf\u03b9 \u03c3\u03b5 \u03c3\u03c7\u03ad\u03c3\u03b7 \u03bc\u03b5 \u03c4\u03b7 \u03c6\u03c1\u03bf\u03bd\u03c4\u03af\u03b4\u03b1;\" style=\"border-radius: 12px\" width=\"100%\" height=\"152\" frameborder=\"0\" allowfullscreen allow=\"autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; fullscreen; picture-in-picture\" loading=\"lazy\" src=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/embed\/episode\/0MjVA5EPpa7SBVf8OKJxSq?utm_source=oembed\"><\/iframe>\n<\/div><\/figure>\n\n\n<section id=\"nvm-faq-block_2b6118079bb75b711d2d3a66719de1e9\" class=\"nvm-faq alignfull\">\r\n    <div class=\"panel panel-width-normal\">\r\n        <div class=\"row small-align-self-center\">\r\n                                        <div class=\"small-column-100 laptop-margin-10 laptop-column-80 small-align-self-center\">\r\n                    <div class=\"faq-wrapper\">\r\n                        <h2 class=\"title color-onyx\">Read the Podcast!<\/h2>\r\n                                                    <div class=\"faq-container\">\r\n                                                                    <div class=\"responsiville-accordion\">\r\n                                        <div class=\"responsiville-accordion-panel\">\r\n                                            <div class=\"responsiville-accordion-header color-onyx\">\r\n                                                WHEN on Topic - Episode 6 | How to overturn traditional roles in caregiving?                                            <\/div>\r\n                                            <div class=\"responsiville-accordion-content\">\r\n                                                <div class=\"text\">\r\n                                                    \n<div class=\"text\">\n    <p><b>Introduction<\/b><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: Welcome to the new season of WHEN On Topic. I\u2019m Penelope Theodorakakou, and I\u2019m back with you to discuss women\u2019s professional and economic empowerment and equality at work. Sometimes even outside of it. This season of our podcast is dedicated to caregiving responsibilities and their equal distribution, and it comes to you thanks to CAREdiZo. What is \u201cCAREdiZo?\u201d It\u2019s a new project we\u2019re involved in as part of the European Commission\u2019s \u201cCERV\u201d programme, which aims to bridge the gender gap in caring responsibilities by promoting equality practices at home, in micro businesses, and small civil society organizations employing up to ten people. The project promotes family- friendly policies, encourages men to participate in caregiving, and highlights the value of caregiving across society, which is what we have been aspiring to for so long. Its activities include research, co-creation workshops, training programmes, and the development of digital tools, such as an educational game, for example, but also podcasts like the one you are listening to here today, to fight stereotypes and promote equality. Our partners are based in Cyprus, Lithuania, and Bulgaria and are currently creating their own podcasts, which you might have the chance to get to listen soon. In this episode of the podcast, we\u2019re talking with Poppy Sevastou, a mom and bartender, and Mina Habib, a mom and communications manager &#8211; a couple and parents &#8211; to have an open conversation about how traditional caregiving roles are being redefined. Together, we discuss how they share everyday responsibilities, what challenges and stereotypes they encounter, and what changes they\u2019d like to see so that care becomes fairer and more inclusive for all families. Mina and Poppy, good evening.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b>Mina<\/b><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: Good evening from us, too.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b>Poppy<\/b><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: Hi Penelope, good evening, and thank you so much for giving us the chance to be here with you today.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b>Penelope<\/b><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: Thank you so much as well for accepting the challenge\u2014did I say that right? Would you like to start by introducing yourselves to our listeners? Poppy, do you want to go first?<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b>Poppy<\/b><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: Sure. I\u2019m Poppy Sevastou, as you mentioned earlier. I\u2019m a bartender &#8211;\u00a0 I make drinks, I try to enjoy my day, and I really love being a mom. That\u2019s me. Do you want to know anything else?<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b>Penelope<\/b><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: No, but let me just note &#8211; when you say you make drinks, this usually means you work at night, correct?<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b>Poppy<\/b><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: Right, not always, but yes, at the moment, you\u2019re absolutely right. I work at night.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b>Penelope<\/b><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: Okay. Mina?<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b>Mina<\/b><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: I\u2019m Mina Habip. I\u2019m a mom and I work as a communications manager for a large cosmetics company. Right now, I\u2019m on maternity leave. I\u2019m with Poppy &#8211;\u00a0 we\u2019re both moms to our little one, who\u2019s ten months old. And I also really love being a mom and spending time with our baby.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b>Penelope<\/b><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: And let\u2019s just say &#8211; their ten-month-old is currently having some creative playtime at the Hub\u2019s childcare space, which is mainly why you\u2019ve both been able to join us here today.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b>Mina<\/b><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: We\u2019re really lucky for that, and thank you.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b>Penelope<\/b><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: I want to take a step back. Before you became parents, before you became moms\/mothers &#8211; and this is a question you can probably only answer now that you are parents.\u00a0 Looking back, how did you imagine your role as a parent before having a child? That\u2019s the first part of the question. And how has it actually turned out to be? I\u2019d like to hear both the good and the not-so-good parts.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b>Mina<\/b><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: Do you want to start, Poppy?<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b>Poppy<\/b><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: Yes, of course. I\u2019ll start, because I was the first one in our family &#8211; and we were a family even before Alkis came along,\u00a0 we didn\u2019t suddenly become one now \u2014 but I was the one who started pushing for it. I\u2019m also a bit older than Mina, so something had been stirring inside me for a while. Actually, if I go further back, it had been there for many years; I always used to say that I wanted to have a child, ever since I was a kid. Back then, I even thought it would be with a man! But I finally made it happen at 41, well, actually 42. It took me a bit longer than I would\u2019ve liked, but I got there. So, it\u2019s something that had always been in my mind, like I knew exactly what I was supposed to do. And honestly, I don\u2019t see much of a difference\u2014only joy. It all feels natural; it just flows. I wouldn\u2019t call the challenges \u201cdifficulties.\u201d\u00a0 I\u2019d just say there are some everyday emergencies, but they always get sorted out because, thankfully, I have a great team around me. So for me, there is nothing I can say about \u201cbefore\u201d and \u201cafter.\u201d It all just came together naturally.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b>Penelope<\/b><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: Like there\u2019s a kind of flow, right? Like it came naturally to you.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b>Poppy<\/b><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: Exactly. Maybe also because I had been waiting for it for so long\u2014that probably played a role.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b>Penelope<\/b><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: Nice. I\u2019m holding on to that word you used &#8211; team. I\u2019ll come back to it later, because \u201cteam\u201d can mean so many things: the people you work with, your community, your support network. I\u2019ll circle back to that. Mina, what about you\u2014the before and after?<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b>Mina<\/b><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: For me, to be completely honest, it\u2019s exactly how I imagined it. The feeling I had while waiting and anticipating this to happen &#8211; the excectation has lived up to that 100%. There\u2019s so much joy, so much tenderness, so much care, and such a deep sense of fulfillment. Of course, there are also difficulties, everyday challenges, and moments of exhaustion, but what truly stands out, what outweighs everything else, is the joy.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b>Penelope<\/b><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: Tell me one of the hard parts.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b>Mina<\/b><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: I\u2019d say it\u2019s this constant fatigue &#8211; a kind of underlying anxiety and sense of responsibility. They\u2019re new feelings for me, but it is exactly what I imagined they\u2019d be. Being with Poppy as my partner and raising a child together has turned out exactly as I pictured it \u2014 it just fit naturally into my life. I had been waiting for this little one for such a long time, so maybe that also plays a role; I was really prepared for what was coming. So, nothing about it has surprised me. Of course, there\u2019s the weight of responsibility and the tiredness, but they don\u2019t overshadow the joy.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b>Poppy<\/b><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: Yes, because in our case, since we\u2019re two women, this wasn\u2019t something that just \u201chappened.\u201d It was planned\u00a0 many times, actually. So imagine that with every failed attempt &#8211; I mean through in vitro fertilization (IVF) &#8211; we got closer and closer to the reality we were envisioning. Naturally, there are challenges; it would be unfair to say we\u2019re these two crazy women claiming that having a child is perfect and effortless. It\u2019s just that, so far, those difficulties haven\u2019t dominated our daily life, yet.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b>Mina<\/b><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: I\u2019ll say something that might come up later in our conversation. I think it plays a huge role that we\u2019re two women. Stereotypically, there\u2019s no idea of \u201cI have a husband who helps\u201d or \u201cI have a very supportive partner.\u201d Everything is shared equally, by default. And that in itself probably helps a lot. But since that\u2019s simply the kind of family we are, we haven\u2019t really stopped to think deeply about how it works in other families.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b>Penelope<\/b><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: I want to note two things here, because my next question is about how you divide caregiving responsibilities; how you manage your everyday life. But first, I want to go back to something Poppy said, because IVF is something many couples go through \u2014 all the effort, the years, the failures. Still, it matters, because both of you mentioned that this joy you feel in describing parenthood might have a lot to do with how much you longed for it, how hard you tried for it. And of course, that\u2019s not to say that other couples who have also tried and struggled don\u2019t feel the same way once it finally happens, it can still be just as fulfilling.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b>Mina<\/b><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: Yes, exactly.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b>Penelope<\/b><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: Right. So just noting that. You\u2019ve both mentioned a few times that it\u2019s significant that you\u2019re two women. Mina, you made a great point earlier &#8211; in another episode of this series, we actually talked about care from the perspective of a dad, a husband, a male partner. And we discussed exactly that &#8211; how men can be more involved, and how much fairer the world would be if that were the case, even in heterosexual couples. But now, let\u2019s get practical. Since right now, Mina, you\u2019re on maternity leave and not working yet, how do you share caregiving duties in your everyday life? Who puts Alkis to sleep?<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b>Mina<\/b><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: Oh no, no. That\u2019s not even a question! We actually argue over who gets to put him to sleep, who gets to feed him, who gets to change him.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b>Penelope<\/b><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: Things I never argued about!<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b>Poppy<\/b><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: Everything\u2019s equal. But even before Alkis, things were equal. We\u2019ve always been a team, a family, even before the baby. So it just carried over naturally once he arrived. I don\u2019t even think of us as \u201ctwo women\u201d in that sense. And looking back now, I actually think that\u2019s better &#8211; otherwise, it would sound like we\u2019re excluding men completely. That\u2019s not what we\u2019re saying at all. We\u2019re not saying, \u201cAll women should just get together and have children with each other.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b>Mina<\/b><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: I\u2019m saying it more in a stereotypical way.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b>Poppy<\/b><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: Honestly, when you become a parent and it\u2019s something you truly want, isn\u2019t it only natural that you take care of your child? What else would it mean? I work nights, sure, so what? Of course I\u2019m tired in the morning, but I\u2019ll still get up to change him, to wash him. And Mina\u2019s tired too, because while I\u2019m at work, she\u2019s at home with the baby, worrying, maybe waking up during the night. So it all just balances out naturally. We share everything. The only thing I don\u2019t really share\u00a0 and that\u2019s just because I enjoy it,\u00a0 is cooking. I like doing that. But Mina does something else in return.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b>Mina<\/b><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: What do you mean? That you are the one who cooks for Alkis?\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b>Poppy<\/b><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: Not for Alkis, for us. We live in the house too.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b>Mina<\/b><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: I think I completely agree with Poppy. Everything is shared equally. I can say no to things that don\u2019t feel balanced or that I simply don\u2019t enjoy doing \u2014 and sometimes Poppy prefers to take on something that I find difficult or just don\u2019t want to do. What\u2019s beautiful is that we share things out of choice, not obligation. It\u2019s an equal partnership because we want it that way. And really, that\u2019s how it should be.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b>Penelope<\/b><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: That\u2019s exactly how it should be. But let me just point out that, in reality, it often isn\u2019t for many reasons. Why? Because in heterosexual couples &#8211; and probably especially in heterosexual couples &#8211; gender roles still exist. There are these traditional gender expectations that say the male partner is the \u201cprovider,\u201d to put it bluntly, while the woman, whether she works or not, ends up carrying a much larger share of the caregiving responsibilities.And that can take many forms and this leads to my question. I\u2019ll give you a moment to think about it. This imbalance can happen regardless of whether the woman is employed or not, and it shows up in so many ways \u2014 for instance, having to take on a \u201csecond\u201d or even a \u201cthird\u201d shift after coming home from work. So my question is this: you two describe what sounds like an ideal situation\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b>Mina<\/b><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: It\u2019s not ideal, not at all.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b>Penelope<\/b><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: Good, then let\u2019s talk about the not-so-ideal, because if I were a mom listening to you right now and not experiencing the same thing, I\u2019d probably turn to my partner -Giannis, Maria, depending on who I\u2019m with &#8211; and say, \u201cWe must be doing something wrong, love. What are they doing so right?<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b>Mina<\/b><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: I\u2019ll tell you, Penelope &#8211; in our case, something that makes a huge difference is that Poppy works in the afternoons and evenings. That means in the mornings, there are two of us taking care of our baby. And beyond the practical side of caregiving &#8211; which, of course, involves responsibility and exhaustion &#8211; there\u2019s also joy. So we get to share not only the effort but also the happiness that comes with it. I think that\u2019s important to note. And also, right now I\u2019m not working &#8211; that\u2019s definitely a big factor.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b>Pinelope<\/b><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: I\u2019ll come back to that.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b>Mina<\/b><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: I thought you might &#8211; and honestly, I\u2019m a bit nervous about both the question and the moment itself! But yes, I think we\u2019re speaking from the reality of our current situation as a family. Just to be clear, we\u2019re not saying everyone should break up or that everyone should be in homosexual relationships.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b>Poppy<\/b><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: Absolutely not. Personally, I don\u2019t agree with that at all.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b>Penelope<\/b><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: Great, let\u2019s go there.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b>Poppy<\/b><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: I completely disagree. I mean, Giannis or Maria, whoever you\u2019ve got sitting across from you, since you mentioned those names, you\u2019re wrong. Take responsibility. You have a child. I\u2019ll be a bit blunt here: I understand if you\u2019re tired, and sure, I can step in. But listen, this applies to everyone &#8211; to men, to heterosexual couples, even to men who actually do a lot for their kids. Because such men exist. Not everyone fits the same mold. Let\u2019s not flatten everything. There are also women who don\u2019t take part as much.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b>Penelopi<\/b><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: For sure, though they\u2019re not the majority. And that\u2019s not just based on experience, it\u2019s backed by research. It\u2019s numbers.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b>Poppy<\/b><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: Still, it is worth mentioning.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b>Penelopi<\/b><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: We actually had a guest like that in a previous episode &#8211; Vasilis Tsolis, of course.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b>Poppy<\/b><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: Really? No way! So they do exist.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"><strong>P<\/strong><\/span><b>enelope<\/b><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: We had to look for him, though. That\u2019s the difference.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b>Poppy<\/b><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: Well, from my own circle, I know two.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b>Penelope<\/b><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: That was exactly my question, whether what you\u2019re experiencing, either as a family with two moms or simply as a family, is something you also see reflected around you.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b>Poppy<\/b><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: I\u2019d say that, fortunately, we do see families like that around us \u2014 families where the male partner or husband is really involved and genuinely willing to take part. Even if, in the end, it\u2019s not a perfect 50-50 split, there\u2019s still a real intention and effort to share things more equally. So yes, I\u2019d say that in our circle, we do see examples like that.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u00a0<\/span><b>Mina<\/b><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: Yes, maybe it\u2019s because we\u2019re part of a more modern pattern.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b>Poppy<\/b><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: Maybe that\u2019s why\/That might be to blame too.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b>Penelope<\/b><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: And I think I\u2019ll put \u201cblame\u201d in quotation marks here, because sometimes, -actually most of the time-\u00a0 the people around us tend to share our views and values. They\u2019re usually the ones who make up our closest network.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b>Poppy<\/b><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: I\u2019ll tell you what &#8211;\u00a0 the people I\u2019m thinking of aren\u2019t necessarily similar to us in terms of mindset. In my mind, I\u2019m picturing more traditional Greek families. But even in those families, I see the male partner being really involved.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b>Penelope<\/b><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: What do you think is working well there, from what you observe?<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b>Poppy<\/b><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: The couple really loves each other, you know? There\u2019s mutual respect. For example, my friend respects that her husband worked a night shift until eight in the morning, so she takes on a bit more that day. And when he wakes up and feels rested, he says, \u201cOkay, let me take over now.\u201d And honestly, come on, is it really such a big deal for a man to hang up his wife\u2019s underwear on the clothesline? I mean, seriously. It\u2019s 2025!<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b>Penelope<\/b><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: You don\u2019t want to ask me that question.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b>Poppy<\/b><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: Right, I probably shouldn\u2019t ask you.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b>Penelope<\/b><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: And I\u2019ll tell you why,\u00a0 because when we talk about how care and responsibilities are divided, yes, of course part of it depends on the couple. But it\u2019s not only about the woman or the man saying \u201chelp me\u201d or \u201csupport me\u201d or \u201clet\u2019s share this.\u201d That would make it sound like it\u2019s just a personal issue\u00a0 and it\u2019s really not. It\u2019s systemic, it\u2019s social, and it\u2019s deeply tied to the stereotypes and biases we all grow up with.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b>Mina<\/b><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: I\u2019d even say it\u2019s institutional, Penelope.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b>Penelope<\/b><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: Exactly.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b>Mina<\/b><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: The fact that women are entitled to maternity leave, while fathers, only very recently, got 14 days off.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b>Penelope<\/b><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: From the two days it was when I gave birth.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b>Mina<\/b><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: So even institutionally, there\u2019s still that gap. But I feel that society is moving forward.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b>Penelope<\/b><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: Really? That\u2019s how you feel?<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b>Mina<\/b><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: At least that\u2019s what I sense from my surroundings. I see that new couples, new male partners, are much more involved and far less traditional. Poppy, do you feel the same, or do you have a different impression?<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b>Poppy<\/b><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: I\u2019d agree with you. You know, because we\u2019re over 40, our married male friends grew up with roughly the same mindset as we did &#8211; like my mother, my brother, my aunt, my cousin, and so on. So they\u2019re mostly the same. But I do see that things are changing. And you know why? Because they have to change. Women work now, they speak up, they assert themselves. And obviously, I\u2019m talking about my own circle. I don\u2019t live in a remote village in Xanthi. I know what I\u2019m talking about. I\u2019m not as romantic as I might sound, thinking everything is perfect, that all men help and everything\u2019s great;\u00a0 that\u2019s not what I mean. I just see real change happening, you know?<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b>Penelope<\/b><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: You see it. And that\u2019s important. I\u2019ll just add that usually, the network we hang out with doesn\u2019t only reflect principles or values-\u00a0 it\u2019s also about the bubbles we live in. I call it living in bubbles. In English, they say, I\u2019m preaching to the choir-\u00a0 we hear what we want to hear, in a way.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b>Mina<\/b><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: Yes, that\u2019s true, because I think we end up surrounding ourselves with a circle that feels like a safe space where everyone feels comfortable. It makes sense. Of course, you keep your radar up and see what\u2019s happening outside of that bubble, but I agree with what you said, and I also think there\u2019s a reason why things happen that way.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b>Penelope<\/b><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: What\u2019s your bubble, then? Who are the people, friends, family, your community, not by name, of course, but who\u2019ve played a role in your daily life? You both mentioned that it was a journey to get here. A journey you\u2019re living in Greece, which, yes, has made many steps forward but still isn\u2019t where it should be.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b>Poppy<\/b><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: By no means.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b>Penelope<\/b><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: I\u2019ll say it, but you\u2019ll explain it better. So what\u2019s the network that\u2019s supported you, and how important has that network been? That\u2019s really what I want to understand.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b>Poppy<\/b><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: The truth is, the network we\u2019ve built over the last twenty years that Mina and I have been together is very safe. So if we trace it from day one until now, it continues to grow stronger. We have a fair number of people around us, but we also have some who don\u2019t want to hear about this at all. And that\u2019s how it is; they\u2019re from our very close circle. The point is, we are strong ourselves, and we keep what we want, we listen to everything, and from there, we try our best for our family. Our network is large.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b>Mina<\/b><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: Yes, we do have quite a few, that\u2019s true.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b>Poppy<\/b><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: You know, we kind of got carried away talking to the audience here, but maybe I should just stop before I go further.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b>Mina<\/b><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: Go ahead, say it.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b>Poppy<\/b><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: No, okay,\u00a0 but you say it too. Answer as well.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b>Mina<\/b><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: I\u2019d say that throughout this whole journey, most of the people we encountered were on our side\u00a0 or at least indifferent, which in reality translated to \u201cokay, fine, and why are you telling me this?\u201d I remember very clearly when we went to the doctor. I\u2019ll mention here that we also faced the issue of \u201cyou\u2019re two women, we can\u2019t take responsibility for you.\u201d We could probably do an entire podcast just about that. But this was before the law was passed, and it\u2019s really important &#8211;\u00a0 because technically, before the law, what we were doing would have been illegal.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b>Poppy<\/b><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: It was illegal. I would go along to sign, but I didn\u2019t even sign anything . Mina had to sign a paper that said \u201csingle, unmarried woman.\u201d I was right there with her. It was completely ridiculous.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b>Mina<\/b><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: Still, the doctors who were with us along the way, they were like \u201cokay, fine, whatever.\u201d But it matters to me that the doctor included Poppy in the cesarean. In other similar cases, a partner, spouse, or father might not even be allowed. And of course, the fact that she was allowed to hold the baby &#8211; those are really encouraging signs for me. Not for society at large, but for people. It gives me hope that there\u2019s empathy around us, which is very important to me. Within my very close circle and this is Poppy\u2019s circle too, my family plays a huge role. They\u2019re supportive and present. That\u2019s significant. And then there are people from our professional lives, from our circle of friends. We have many friends we\u2019ve known for a long time, and we\u2019ve all grown up together in a sense.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b>Penelope<\/b><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: What role does this supportive network play? How important is it to have a network like this, whether it\u2019s small or large?<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b>Poppy<\/b><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: I\u2019ll speak from a professional perspective. Personally, my employer didn\u2019t question that I would take two weeks off. I said, \u201cKostas, Mina is giving birth.\u201d And he said, \u201cYeah, okay, fine, a month &#8211; that\u2019s your right.\u201d I told him, \u201cI\u2019m entitled to a month, I\u2019m a mom,\u201d and they said, \u201cYes, a month, no problem.\u201d I got paid as usual, my benefits were fine, and they were supportive afterwards too &#8211;\u00a0 hugs, kisses, everything was great. Our friends were all there, before and after, helping us as we raised our child. Everyone together;if I think back 20 years, a photo might show eight people, and now it\u2019s suddenly sixteen.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b>Penelope<\/b><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: Which could have been fewer, but that\u2019s what you meant earlier, Poppy \u2014 that not everyone around us is ready to hear about or understand our needs. And I\u2019m saying this in a general sense.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b>Poppy<\/b><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: Also, our friends &#8211; our close circle &#8211; are straight couples with or without kids, or single women or men. We have gay friends too, but let\u2019s not put labels on it. The people around us, who we\u2019ve grown up with, I don\u2019t know if \u201copen\u201d is the right word, but they\u2019ve accepted our situation.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b>Mina<\/b><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: Honestly, what we all need is empathy. Just a little empathy in everything, especially when it comes to care. Even in a heterosexual couple, empathy matters. When someone next to you is exhausted, anxious, or completely overwhelmed, that should ring a bell. You can\u2019t have the person beside you falling apart while you just go on living your own reality. It has to be a team effort, that\u2019s what it means to share a life. There\u2019s no other way.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b>Penelope<\/b><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: You mentioned earlier the doctor who said, \u201cWe can\u2019t take you on\u201d,\u00a0 before the law passed, okay. What other, smaller or bigger barriers or stereotypes have you come across that really got to you?<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b>Poppy<\/b><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: You know what? He\u2019s still so little, so I\u2019d say we haven\u2019t really been that exposed yet.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b>Penelope<\/b><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: Right, that makes sense.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b>Poppy<\/b><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: But even if it does happen, we won\u2019t allow it. Personally, I won\u2019t allow anyone to upset or pressure me. I have this thing. How can I put it\u2026 I want what we did to not be anyone else\u2019s concern. Just like I don\u2019t care what anyone else does. If you\u2019re a boy who wants to dress like a girl, or a girl who wants to shave her head, or a woman who wants to drive a truck, that\u2019s your business. So, listen, don\u2019t care about what I do either. That\u2019s just how I see it, deep down.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b>Penelope<\/b><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: Mina?<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b>Mina<\/b><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: For me, it wasn\u2019t so much annoying as it was outrageous, like what I mentioned about the IVF center, to be completely honest. But then, when we went through the process of getting a passport for the baby\u2026 First, I should mention that we\u2019re in the process of Poppy adopting the baby as the second parent. There\u2019s a law now, but it still doesn\u2019t fully recognize the partner as a parent. So at this moment, the baby has only one legal parent &#8211; me, because I gave birth &#8211; until the adoption process is complete.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b>Penelope<\/b><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: Which is a long process.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b>Mina<\/b><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: Yes, to finalize it takes almost three years. We\u2019re six months in, and the social services\u2019 investigation went perfectly. Now it\u2019s up to the judges and our lawyer. Luckily, we have a very competent, kind lawyer, so we\u2019re not worried. The law has passed, but unfortunately\u2026<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b>Poppy<\/b><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: The fact that the law passed has created a very different kind of attitude for you, I think.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b>Mina<\/b><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: The word is different. We\u2019re now visible.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b>Penelope<\/b><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: And institutionally too.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b>Mina<\/b><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: It\u2019s really important. So, I went through the process of getting a passport for Alkis \u2014 he was five months old at the time. I showed up as a single woman with a child. And the officer there, in a very central police department in Athens, kept insisting on asking me, \u201cWho is the father?\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b>Poppy<\/b><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: We should mention it. It was in Metaxourgeio.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b>Mina<\/b><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: Yes, it doesn\u2019t really matter, a very polite man, who was trying, in his own subtly intrusive way, to ask me who the father was\u2026. In the end, I just said, \u201cThere is no father.\u201d It didn\u2019t feel like a safe space to explain the type of family we are, and that bothered me quite a bit. Long story short, he ended up advising me to go to City Hall and just give a \u201cplaceholder\u201d name for the father &#8211;\u00a0 a Giorgos, a Kostas, a Giannis &#8211; so that the passport wouldn\u2019t say \u201cfather unknown.\u201d I found it kind of funny at the time. But I\u2019ll say this: right now, there\u2019s a tiny baby, so maybe that\u2019s why I could laugh about it. If the same thing happened when our child was five years old, I don\u2019t think I\u2019d find it funny at all. I felt uncomfortable and weird.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b>Penelope<\/b><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: Poppy said something very important earlier, that Alkis is still very little, just ten months old, and you haven\u2019t really been exposed to that kind of situation yet. I truly hope, with all my heart, that you\u2019ll have to face as few of those as possible. But as you said, when Alkis turns five, you might be dealing with that again. Let\u2019s hope we\u2019re all well and can see how things have evolved by then.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b>Mina<\/b><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: I believe that by then, things will have changed institutionally. For example, we were just looking at something related to schools, there was a form that said \u201cmother\u2019s name, father\u2019s name.\u201d I talked it over with Poppy, who saw it differently from me. She said, \u201cWell, that\u2019s obviously going to evolve &#8211; it\u2019ll become Parent 1, Parent 2, or something like that. It doesn\u2019t matter how it\u2019s written.\u201d And she said, \u201cOkay, so what do we do now? We\u2019re put in an awkward position &#8211; I will just cross it out and write mother\u2019s name again\u201d. So it\u2019s really about how you choose to see things.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b>Penelope<\/b><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: And it\u2019s also about how the other side &#8211; the schools, for example &#8211; keeps up with the times. Change is happening, but we need it to happen faster. Though, just to slightly dishearten you, I\u2019ll share something that happened to me yesterday: I called a bank to cancel an appointment because I wasn\u2019t feeling well. The appointment was to find out what I needed to do to add my underage child as a co-holder on my account.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b>Mina<\/b><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: Oh, do tell. We\u2019re interested.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b>Poppy<\/b><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: Do you want to talk about it now? That\u2019s for another podcast.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b>Penelope<\/b><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: So they told me: \u201cOf course, I can see here that you have these accounts and you\u2019re the legal representative for these two companies and so on\u2026 and what\u2019s your husband\u2019s name?\u201d I said, \u201cI don\u2019t have a husband.\u201d He said, \u201cWhat do you mean?\u201d I said, \u201cI don\u2019t have a husband.\u201d And the answer was, \u201cThat\u2019s not possible.\u201d\u00a0 I said, \u201cBecause I don\u2019t have a husband? I mean, I\u2019m just asking so that when I feel better and come in tomorrow or the day after, you can tell me what I need to bring because having a husband is definitely not one of them.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">What I mean is, this isn\u2019t just an issue that affects the community; it\u2019s a broader one. That person didn\u2019t even know the basics to ask something like, \u201cAre you divorced? Has your husband passed away? Anything?\u201d No question at all. Just: \u201cIt\u2019s not possible.\u201d Completely out of touch. And that\u2019s a matter of structure, of education. And we\u2019re talking about a straight person.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b>Poppy<\/b><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: From personal experience, when we went to the town hall to get married, the people there were actually really chill about it. It was like someone had told them, \u201cJust let them do their thing. It\u2019ll be worse for us if we make a scene.\u201d Because, honestly, we\u2019ve started raising our voices too; there are so many activists and strong groups out there, one of them being Rainbow Families (Greece). It\u2019s worth mentioning that because\u00a0 they\u2019ve done so much so that we can now be here, speaking openly, commenting on current events\/affairs, being visible. And that makes me feel really good.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"><strong>Mina<\/strong>: I have to say, whoever we\u2019ve had to deal with, I\u2019ve been pleasantly surprised. I\u2019ll be honest. That doesn\u2019t mean something bad won\u2019t happen eventually. But, like Poppy said, it\u2019s as if there\u2019s been an unspoken memo: \u201cBe careful,don\u2019t mess this up and end up on TV.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"><b>Penelope<\/b>: That\u2019s the sense I get, and it\u2019s a good one, actually.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"><strong>Poppy<\/strong>: Well, obviously we turn our backs and they say things, but we don&#8217;t care.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b>Penelope<\/b><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: Okay, fair enough. But when you actually care does matter. Because you might be &#8211; you know, we often say this in different contexts &#8211; like, I could say: \u201cIf someone makes a sexual remark at work, I\u2019ll blow up, I\u2019ll shut it down immediately.\u201d But that can\u2019t be the standard, whether I\u2019m strong enough to handle it or not. People should just not make sexist jokes. They should just not be sexist. So it\u2019s not only about whether I can deal with it or whether I have a strong personality.I remember talking once with a friend who\u2019s a civil engineer &#8211; she\u2019s on construction sites day and night. She said, \u201cI go however I want &#8211; in boots, in a short skirt, whatever &#8211; and if someone says something, I\u2019ll tell them off.\u201d<\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u00a0And we had this talk &#8211; like, okay, but because you\u2019re 40+, empowered, confident &#8211; what about a young woman, just starting out, working hard to get that job after her studies (or even before finishing them)? If she doesn\u2019t have that same toughness to say, \u201cExcuse me?\u201d &#8211; we can\u2019t put the responsibility on her. That\u2019s a social issue.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b>Mina<\/b><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: No.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b>Penelope<\/b><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: That\u2019s why I say it\u2019s not just about strength of character. You said, \u201cYou two are strong, you don\u2019t care, nothing bothers you\u201d but it shouldn\u2019t be happening in the first place.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b>Mina<\/b><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: Absolutely. I do appreciate, though, that even if there\u2019s gossip behind our backs, people behave with a kind of discretion. I\u2019ve really been impressed. And that man I mentioned earlier, the police officer, with all the stereotypes that come with that job, I found him kind of funny. He was trying so hard to be discreet, and yet, what he was suggesting wasn\u2019t discreet at all. But yeah, I\u2019m over 40, and I can handle those kinds of people now.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b>Penelope<\/b><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: Sure\u00a0 and it\u2019s not just about age. It depends on where you are in life, where you\u2019re going, many things.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b>Mina<\/b><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: We\u2019ll talk again in three years, when people at the beach start asking Alkis, \u201cWhere\u2019s your dad?\u201d or when he says, \u201cI have two moms,\u201d and everyone stares.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b>Poppy<\/b><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: People are learning. My niece, since she was very little, would go up the stairs and tell her friends: \u201cMy aunts live here,\u201d and then, \u201cMy dad, mom, and I live here, and over there live my uncle and aunt.\u201d Kids learn. The new generations are coming\u00a0 fast. And even if I used to hide it for years, or now I don\u2019t have great relations with my own family, that has nothing to do with what Alkis will choose to do. whether he\u2019ll have kids with his husband one day, or whether my niece will decide to have a child on her own. They\u2019re learning, and as parents, we\u2019re here to encourage them.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b>Penelope<\/b><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: I think this is the most optimistic episode of this entire series, maybe even of the whole podcast, to be honest.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b>Poppy:<\/b><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Penelope, we are here to raise our children and teach them how to love and not who to love.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b>Penelope<\/b><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: Okay, that\u2019s what we say, but not everyone believes that, I\u2019d say.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b>Mina<\/b><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: On the other hand, you know how in Greece we always use that \u201cyes, but\u2026\u201d expression; there\u2019s always a \u201cbut.\u201d Anyway, we have to start somewhere, right? Each of us, from our own little circles.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b>Penelope<\/b><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: Absolutely! Right! From our bubbles. Exactly! Let me bring you back to reality for a second.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b>Mina<\/b><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: Hmm.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b>Penelope<\/b><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: Because, Mina, you\u2019ll be going back &#8211; by the time this podcast is out, you might have already gone back.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b>Mina<\/b><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: I don\u2019t really know how the schedule\u2019s going.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b>Penelope<\/b><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: So, I wanted to ask:\u00a0 how do you imagine your return to work?<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b>Mina<\/b><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: Difficult. I\u2019ll interrupt you to say that it is right away difficult.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b>Penelope<\/b><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: What worries you about it, and what would you like to be different this time, in a realistic framework, I mean?<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b>Mina<\/b><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: What worries me is the lack of time. I can already see it, not just imagining it &#8211; from my past daily routine, from what I see around me. It\u2019s a constant race, and what really bothers me is that time won\u2019t be quality time. In an ideal world, I\u2019d love to spend these first few years of my child\u2019s life actually being present. So yes, I\u2019m anxious about the lack of quality time and about not being fully there.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b>Penelope<\/b><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: Given that you will be returning to work and given that you will be returning to a job where you are an employee of a company, theoretically, let&#8217;s say that, legally at least, you have an eight-hour day and some time to get to work and some time to get back from work, so let&#8217;s put these practical facts down, what would you like to happen differently from what you know and from other women who have returned from maternity leave, in the same workplace or in others from friends, etc. What would you like to happen differently?<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b>Mina<\/b><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: I\u2019ll speak realistically.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b>Penelope<\/b><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: Realistically, okay.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b>Mina<\/b><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: Because my ideal scenario would be\u2026 for every company to have a space where\u2026<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b>Penelope<\/b><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: Go on, say it.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b>Poppy<\/b><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: Here, they actually do have that, Mina. Are you looking for a job? (laughs) They\u2019re doing great work with that here.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b>Mina<\/b><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: My ideal scenario would be to work for a big company, one located in a shared space with other big companies &#8211; multinationals, for instance. And there could be a space for all the kids of those &#8211; I\u2019ll say it &#8211; \u201cpoor\u201d, tired moms and dads, let\u2019s include the dads too &#8211; where childcare is available on-site. I mean, what could be more normal than that? I think the current system, at least in our country, doesn\u2019t really help anyone, not any member of the family. So, realistically, I\u2019d want a more flexible work arrangement; something that allows me to be more present, more \u201chere.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b>Penelope<\/b><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: And given that in the next two, three, maybe four months when you go back, that space won\u2019t have been built yet, what\u2019s the next, slightly less ideal but still flexible scenario that would help you?<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b>Mina<\/b><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: You mean in terms of work, right?<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b>Penelope<\/b><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: In terms of work, yes.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b>Mina<\/b><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: To ask for a more flexible schedule, to actually demand it, to prioritize this new situation I\u2019m in. I can\u2019t think of anything else more realistic. And beyond that, to create &#8211; if it exists &#8211; a support system that helps you feel a bit more at ease, even if you can\u2019t always be physically present.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b>Penelope<\/b><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: Poppy, Mina\u2019s going back to work; let\u2019s say a 9-to-5 job.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b>Poppy<\/b><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: It&#8217;s not 9 to 5, guys, that&#8217;s the thing, because it&#8217;s an hour before, half an hour to get ready, an hour after to come back, a quarter to half an hour to calm your head down, it&#8217;s more than that.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b>Penelope<\/b><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: What worries you about this scenario, and what would you like to see happen?<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b>Poppy<\/b><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: I would like Mina to spend more time with the child and with me. Fortunately for our family, I don&#8217;t work in the mornings at the moment, so yes, there is&#8230;<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b>Penelope<\/b><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: One of the two parents will be there.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"><strong>Poppy<\/strong>: Right, exactly. If there\u2019s a gap &#8211; \u201coh no, what do we do now?\u201d &#8211; we\u2019ll find a way. But it\u2019s really hard with daycare. Why do they close at 5 p.m.? What time is a parent supposed to leave work?<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b>Penelope<\/b><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: Mmm.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b>Poppy<\/b><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: I mean, really. Those of you who\u2019ve been parents longer, how did you manage? Did you have to&#8230;\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b>Mina<\/b><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: Like you said,\u00a0 it\u2019s a race.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b>Poppy<\/b><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: Yes, but you know, that&#8217;s not very humane.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b>Penelope<\/b><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: No, it\u2019s not. In Greece, you depend on your support network.\u00a0 You need a grandma or a grandpa.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b>Poppy<\/b><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: Yeah but that\u2019s not right either; or you end up paying 30 euros to someone to help you out, and I mean, come on, we\u2019re both salaried workers.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b>Mina<\/b><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: On the other hand, at this point, since we keep having this discussion with Poppy, how many hours could you leave a baby&#8230;\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b>Poppy<\/b><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: Yes<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b>Mina<\/b><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">:&#8230;at the nursery because you work 10 or 12 hours, could you leave it for 10?<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b>Poppy<\/b><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: So what\u2019s the proposal then? To work six-hour days?<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b>Mina<\/b><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: To have more flexible work schedules for those first years, which actually happens in other countries.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b>Poppy<\/b><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: That\u2019s true.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b>Mina<\/b><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: There\u2019s this really nice initial period here that supports your new role, and then suddenly you\u2019re thrown into the ocean and there\u2019s nothing.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b>Poppy<\/b><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: Yes.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b>Mina<\/b><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: There should be and I don\u2019t mean only for women or only for men, whoever chooses a flexible work model for that first phase, let\u2019s say the first three years &#8211; you\u2019d know better, you\u2019re the more experienced parent here.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b>Penelope<\/b><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: My child\u2019s twelve now.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b>Poppy<\/b><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: I mean, I can\u2019t work from home, I haven\u2019t yet figured out how to send drinks from my house to table number two!\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b>Mina<\/b><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: Maybe we could use AI to come up with that idea? <\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">That&#8217;s right.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b>Penelope<\/b><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: And Business Development on WHEN podcast (Humoristically)!<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b>Poppy<\/b><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: Working from home would be great, at least some days, without the anxiety of asking for it. Because you know, in previous cases, most women &#8211; especially salaried women &#8211; are anxious about returning to work because they feel different. It sounds a bit strange, doesn\u2019t it? But it\u2019s not something men experience.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b>Mina<\/b><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: Very nice. (irony?)<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b>Penelope<\/b><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: You\u2019re proving my point.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b>Mina<\/b><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: \u03a5eah, that doesn\u2019t apply to fathers. For a father, it\u2019s like:\u00a0 he\u2019s done his \u201cjob,\u201d he\u2019s had the baby, and then he can just go right back to his old life. Women, on the other hand &#8211; Poppy, let me add &#8211; feel anxious because they\u2019re not the same anymore. Even if we want to believe otherwise, you suddenly become a different person. You\u2019ve gone through a whole other process, which takes time both physically and mentally, in my view and based on my own experience. Yes, I am a different person, I am still the person I was before, I\u2019m in a transitional phase, but I will find myself again along the way; it just doesn\u2019t happen that quickly, that\u2019s how I feel.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b>Penelope<\/b><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: And let me say here, as a more experienced parent, that it is not necessary; the point is not to find me again, because I am not the same person, as you yourself said. I have acquired other skills, I may have acquired other priorities, but returning to my job may not be compulsory work. This is now a double interpretation, meaning that I may like my job, I may want to return to my job, I may want to evolve, do something else, learn more. It&#8217;s not just that &#8220;oh, now I&#8217;m going back,&#8221; it&#8217;s not like that for everyone, it&#8217;s not like that for everyone. However, even if it&#8217;s not like that for me, that is, I want to return to work, I have a difference in relation to my male colleagues, it&#8217;s not the same.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b>Poppy<\/b><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: Oh, absolutely. No question about it.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b>Mina<\/b><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: I was actually talking about this with a friend just yesterday, totally by coincidence, who told me that &#8221; let me tell you something,&#8221; &#8211; she also works in a large advertising agency for a multinational group,-\u00a0 &#8220;here, men don&#8217;t take parental leave, mothers run around doing everything because the child has to go to the doctor, because they have to go to the school party, because, because, because&#8230; &#8221; Both parents are entitled to parental leave, but it is women who do all the running around. I don&#8217;t know if this is a stereotype, I don&#8217;t know how deep the roots of what we are discussing are.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b>Penelope<\/b><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: Oh, it\u2019s deeply rooted. We\u2019ve actually done research on that exact issue, I mention it in every episode, so I won\u2019t say more here. Just go read it on our website. It\u2019s about how men don\u2019t take the parental leave they\u2019re entitled to and how that affects the unequal distribution of care responsibilities.And since we\u2019ve reached this point, we\u2019ve gone from the ideal to what\u2019s really happening out there, I\u2019ll ask you both the same final question: if you could rewrite one \u201crule\u201d about care &#8211; interpret \u201crule\u201d however you like &#8211; which one would you rewrite, and how?<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b>Poppy<\/b><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: For me, there\u2019s just one rule; I said it at the start of the podcast: equality in everything we do to raise our child.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b>Penelope<\/b><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: Together.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b>Poppy<\/b><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: Together, exactly.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b>Penelope<\/b><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: Mina?\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b>Mina<\/b><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: Equal sharing. The starting point is simply that we both see ourselves as parents, you\u2019re a parent, full stop. It shouldn\u2019t need any extra definition. So yes, my rule would have no modifiers. Just equal sharing; of roles, responsibilities, and the way you care for the person you\u2019ve chosen to create and raise together.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b>Poppy<\/b><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: And look\u2026 that applies whether the couple stays together or not.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b>Penelope<\/b><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: That\u2019s another podcast episode!<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b>Poppy:<\/b><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Oh really? When can I come back?<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b>Penelope<\/b><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: I\u2019ll join too!<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b>Mina<\/b><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: In three years, we said; when Alkis turns three.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b>Poppy<\/b><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: That\u2019s right. I hope we\u2019re still together.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b>Mina<\/b><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: Then we\u2019ll be on two podcasts! (laughs)<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b>Penelope<\/b><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: Mina and Poppy, thank you so, so, so much for the conversation and the company. See you in three years!<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b>Poppy<\/b><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: Thank you.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b>Mina<\/b><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: This felt like therapy today. See you in three years!<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b>Conclusion<\/b><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: What did you think of what we shared today with Poppy and Mina, and what else do you think CAREdiZo could potentially create that would bring us one or more steps <\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">closer to equality, both inside and outside of work? We are always here to read and listen <\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">to your suggestions, comments, and ideas, so you can follow us on social media, send <\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">us an email, leave us a review on Spotify, and, of course, come and meet us at WHEN <\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Hub and let\u2019s continue the discussion so that we can make WHEN and CAREdiZo even <\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">better for everyone.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<\/div>                                                <\/div>\r\n                                            <\/div>\r\n                                        <\/div>\r\n                                    <\/div>\r\n                                                            <\/div>\r\n                                                                    <\/div>\r\n                <\/div>\r\n                    <\/div>\r\n    <\/div>\r\n<\/section>\n\n\n<div class=\"text\">\n    <p style=\"text-align: center;\"><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The WHEN on Topic Podcast is available on all major platforms!<\/span><\/p>\n<p style=\"text-align: center;\"><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">You can listen to all episodes on any platform you listen to your podcasts on \u2013 we are on <\/span><a style=\"font-size: 1.8rem;\" href=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/09iNBpLA8e3zfkAMZBVqyi\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\"><b>Spotify<\/b><\/a><span style=\"font-size: 1.8rem;\">, <\/span><a style=\"font-size: 1.8rem;\" href=\"https:\/\/www.buzzsprout.com\/1924253\/listings\/3126301\/edit\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\"><b>Buzzsprout<\/b><\/a><span style=\"font-size: 1.8rem;\">, <\/span><a style=\"font-size: 1.8rem;\" href=\"https:\/\/podcasts.google.com\/feed\/aHR0cDovL2ZlZWRzLmxpYnN5bi5jb20vMjQzNDEzL3Jzcw?hl=en-GR\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\"><b>Google podcasts<\/b><\/a><span style=\"font-size: 1.8rem;\">\u00a0&amp;\u00a0<\/span><a style=\"font-size: 1.8rem;\" href=\"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/podcast\/id1496502155\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\"><b>Apple podcasts<\/b><\/a><span style=\"font-size: 1.8rem;\">, <\/span><a style=\"font-size: 1.8rem;\" href=\"https:\/\/www.audible.com\/pd\/Women-On-Topic-Podcast\/B09VG1JD3R?\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\"><b>Amazon music<\/b><\/a><span style=\"font-size: 1.8rem;\">, <\/span><a style=\"font-size: 1.8rem;\" href=\"https:\/\/pca.st\/5qc63x16\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\"><b>Pocket Casts<\/b><\/a><span style=\"font-size: 1.8rem;\">, <\/span><a style=\"font-size: 1.8rem;\" href=\"https:\/\/podcastaddict.com\/podcast\/3795610\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\"><b>Podcast Addict<\/b><\/a><span style=\"font-size: 1.8rem;\">, <span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">and of course on<\/span> <\/span><a style=\"font-size: 1.8rem;\" href=\"https:\/\/blacklemon.tv\/podcasts\/women-topic\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\"><b>Black Lemon<\/b><\/a><b>&#8216;s platform<\/b><span style=\"font-size: 1.8rem;\">.<\/span><\/p>\n<hr \/>\n<p style=\"text-align: center;\"><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The <\/span><a href=\"https:\/\/caredizo.eu\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\"><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">CAREdiZO<\/span><\/a><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> project is implemented in the framework of the European Commission\u2019s CERV Programme, as a cooperation among the\u00a0 following organisations: Challedu (Greece), WHEN (Greece), MOTERU INFORMACIJOS CENTRAS (Lithuania), NATSIONALNA MREZHA ZA BIZNES RAZVITIE (Bulgaria), Mediterranean Institute of Gender Studies (Cyprus). The project is funded by the European Union. The views and opinions expressed are, nonetheless, solely those of the authors and do not necessarily reflect those of the European Commission-EU. Neither the European Union nor the European Commission is responsible for them. Project code: 101191047 \u2013 CAREdiZO \u2013 CERV-2024-GE.<\/span><\/p>\n<\/div>","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>In the new episode of When on Topic, Penelope Theodorakakou holds an open discussion with Popi Sevastou and Mina Habip - a couple of women and parents of little Alkis \u2013 about how traditional roles around caregiving are changing and how their daily lives are shaped.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":18,"featured_media":38196,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"footnotes":""},"categories":[385,460],"tags":[442],"class_list":["post-38107","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-nea-en","category-when-on-topic","tag-caredizo-en-2"],"acf":[],"yoast_head":"<!-- This site is optimized with the Yoast SEO plugin v23.5 - https:\/\/yoast.com\/wordpress\/plugins\/seo\/ -->\n<title>WHEN on Topic: How to overturn traditional roles in caregiving? 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